Would vinyl even be invented today?

That's right Scvan - He invited internet as a great invention, but people twisted his words.... :)

"Well, let's look at the market for sound reproduction and make an educated, clean-sheet-of-paper guess. Hi-res digital, available as either download, stream, or SACD/DVD audio is out there already. It offers the essentially "perfect sound forever" promised, but not delivered, by CD. Hardware is expensive, but quite good examples may be had for non-stratospheric prices. IMHO, the combination of high quality sonics plus convenience plus affordability would doom the LP record to instant obsolescence should it come to market brand new today. Sad but in all probability true."

Actually, high res formats brought vinyl back from the dead. When Sony disscontued support for SACD, and DVD-A didn't really go anywhere, they couldn't make TT's fast enough. What happened with those 2 formats is a direct cause as to why vinyl is doing so well today.

Actually, high res formats brought vinyl back from the dead. When Sony disscontued support for SACD, and DVD-A didn't really go anywhere, they couldn't make TT's fast enough. What happened with those 2 formats is a direct cause as to why vinyl is doing so well today.

I'm not sure about that. From what I see at record stores it seems about 95% of record sales are people who have systems that would be better used for CD playback. A cheap CD player will almost always outperform a cheap TT with built in phono pre (numark/crosley).
The resurgence of vinyl is not about sound quality it is about hipsters being ironically cool.

Scvan, you hit that nail SQUARELY on the head.
USA is totally a "next thing" market on about anything you care to mention.

Ok ... not a technical response, but how do you factor in the album cover pics on old vinyl. I have a bunch of Linda Ronstadt LPs from the 70s and I still have a crush on her ... from the old days. I also have a CD re-issue of one of her old LPs ... it's just not the same.

I concede that the quality of some digital formats may exceed the playback quality of LPs (no ticks, pops and hissing), but ... modern turntables are just so much better than the junk that was on the market in the 60s and 70s. I think my hot-rodded VPI Classic 2.75 does a great job playing back my old vinyl.

Ok ... maybe not as clean as my CDs, but really well done. Still a great musical experience. Just my humble opinion.

Happy Holidays to all of my Audiogon pals!!

Cheers,

BIF

Cover art is an lp strongpoint. On the digital front one can see read and learn more about music or artists of interest these days as the graphical user interfaces of software controllers continue to evolve and integrate with content and other apps via Internet. So much is possible there already. My squeezebox controller app runs on tablets and provides links to artist album and track info on the allmusic site Wikipedia and others. With my Amazon fire box streaming hi res audio via toslink to my systems dac the display of album art on my hdtv is about the size of an lp cover. Still nothing physical to own and touch though.

"I'm not sure about that. From what I see at record stores it seems about 95% of record sales are people who have systems that would be better used for CD playback."

I wasn't guessing on that. It really happened. For a long time audiophiles were pushing for a better digital format than CD. And when SACD and DVDA came out, and then failed shortly after, a lot of people were fed up with digital and went back to analog. The demand for TT's was so great, there were several companies that were backed up over 6 months.

"The resurgence of vinyl is not about sound quality it is about hipsters being ironically cool."

Sorry, but that is a silly comment. How do you know what motivates an individual to buy a TT? Can you even come up with 1 piece of evidence to show that's a true statement?

Zd542 .... maybe using the phrase "ironically cool" does not reflect the motivation of many. In my case, I bought a 1st generation VPI Classic 1 and DIY "modded" it to near Classic 3 performance.

Specifically, I switched out the tonearm/wand assembly to the Classic 3 version. I also switched out the 600 rpm motor to the Classic 3 300 rpm motor. Also bought the periphery ring and SS clamp. In truth, the biggest change was realized from just switching out the wand. The other changes were no big deal ... but fun.

I like fiddling with the tonearm azimuth, VTA "on-the-fly" tower and VTF adjustments.

I'm glad that I have both vinyl and CDP capabilities. Sometimes I just feel like laying back to listen to my CDP. That way no getting up to fiddle with the TT.

Happy Holidays!!

BIF

One has merely to have an elementary understanding of American society to know his comment is spot on and anything but silly.

BIF, most on here see themselves in your post.
However, that represents about .01 % of Americans.
Scvan is correct .

"12-25-14: Bifwynne
Zd542 .... maybe using the phrase "ironically cool" does not reflect the motivation of many. In my case, I bought a 1st generation VPI Classic 1 and DIY "modded" it to near Classic 3 performance."

That's my point exactly. You're into vinyl because you like the way it sounds. That, and already having a large collection of records, are the only 2 reasons I can see for buying a TT. Why would it be more complicated than that?

"12-25-14: Schubert
One has merely to have an elementary understanding of American society to know his comment is spot on and anything but silly."

Schubert,

I assume you were commenting on this:

""The resurgence of vinyl is not about sound quality it is about hipsters being ironically cool."

Sorry, but that is a silly comment. How do you know what motivates an individual to buy a TT? Can you even come up with 1 piece of evidence to show that's a true statement?"

I'll be happy to consider your point of view, but you have to tell us what it is. If something is spot on, there's no need to be general, or cryptic. What exactly are we talking about here?

That said, from the numbers that were supplied, we can say in excess of 300,000 turntables sold last year and that means if you add the Numarks, Ions, Audio-Technica sales, it is safe to say approximately 1,000,000 turntables sold last year. Add Crosley and the number would probably double. We claim it is "safe" to say 1,000,000 because a few years ago Ion did reveal that it sold that many turntables.

That is taken from an article on analog planet. The 300,000 number is of "high-grade" manufacturers, basically anybody whose name is not mentioned.

So assuming that at most 30% of sales are decent TT's and the rest are junk is the resurgence of vinyl a sound thing. Then if we add in Crosley it could be as little as 15% of TTs are decent stuff. Is that a vinyl sound loving resurgence or something else?

The highest selling LP of the year was Jack White's Lazaretto. These are the TTs Jack White sells on his website. http://thirdmanstore.com/merchandise/turntables Except for the pro-ject that is really really terrible stuff.

Then there is this from Urban Outfitters. http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/urban/catalog/category.jsp?id=A_MUSIC_TURNTABLES#/ A store that is clearly targeted to younger people, but has a wider variety of TTs than any audio store I've been in recently.

Finally, how many people on the board have been to RSD which is easily the biggest day for record sales in the country (USA). People are lining up for hours outside before the stores open. I've done this and can easily say I was possibly the only person over 30 there.

Yes there are young people who have good systems and good turntables, but the majority of turntables that are being sold now are probably some of the worst ever produced. These people are not buying the TTs or vinyl for sound quality.

I think I have done a decent job of laying out my argument, for those that disagree please show me a similar story why I am wrong.

Scvan, as a record store owner I have to totally disagree.
I sold lots of great TT that can easily outperform even expensive CD-player. There are plentyplentier in $200 range 70's and 80's vintage that can sound very good paired with same priced vintage receiver. Among thousands of customers visiting store maybe 1 or 2 using Crosley or Numark, the rest Thorens, Linn, Technics 1200, 1300, 1600, Sony PS3300, Pioneer PL40, PL50, PL560... I can continue this list for few or several more pages. It's only I guess audiophile dogma...

Zd542, I respect your posts in general but I can think of nothing to say but just look around you in a consumer mad society .
Perhaps why someone will spend 10K more for a Passat if you puy 4 ten buck rings on the front? Or 30 bucks more for a shirt with an alligator on it than same from the same Asian factory.
X 10,000 .

For that matter, would two-channel even be invented today? Unfortunately two channel is here to stay, for (at least) two reasons:
-The billions of recordings that were made in two-channel
-The immense popularity of headphones

The resurgence of vinyl is not about sound quality it is about hipsters being ironically cool.

Distilling the vinyl renaissance down to one minor cultural phenomenon is simplistic and ignores gobs of evidence that moves in several different directions.

At this point, the vinyl resurgence is too big and too long-lasting to be a fad. The vinyl resurgence started getting noticed about nine years ago. Evidence of the resurgence suggests several different markets. Current pop artists are issuing vinyl versions of their albums, mostly from digital sources. One could say that market serves the hipsters.

But what about Acoustic Sounds? It's the biggest single vendor of new vinyl. Or others in the same market--MusicDirect, ElusiveDisc, SoundStageDirect, etc.? $35 reissues of 1958-1964 RCA, Everest, and Mercury classical recordings (and Verve, Prestige, Columbia, and Concord Group jazz albums) are hardly aimed at hipsters. Nor are the new Beatles mono vinyl releases.

Also, since the vinyl resurgence, we have seen McIntosh come out with a turntable for the first time, Marantz came out with its first turntable in a looong time, and the few turntable manufacturers who continued through the dark days have exponentially expanded their lines: Rega, Pro-Ject, Music Hall have all gone from 2-3 item product lines to many times that.

Do you think for a moment that hipsters are fueling the expansion of audiophile turntables, cartridge offerings, phono preamps and step-up devices?

In fact, even vinyl-spinning hipsters couldn't prevent Technics from discontinuing the SL12x0 series of direct drive turntables. It's caused the boutique belt-drive companies to expand their product lines and thrive.

To say it's all hipsters or a consumer-mad society is narrow-focus and dismissive. Most of the turntables come from Europe, even the USA-branded ones. The McIntosh and Marantz models were sourced from Clearaudio. Other makers are Rega, Linn, Naim, Funk Firm, Music Hall, and Pro-Ject. All those makers continued and thrived because European music lovers refused to abandon vinyl. That's not hipsters or consumerism; it's finding the intrinsic musical value amidst decades of digital hype.

The trendy crap is Crosley, Numark, Ion, etc. Those would satisfy the hipster market, but the sonically driven quality stuff is for the rest of us. Let's not forget that the aging baby boom is a lump of 75 million American consumers, and many of us (me included) are having one last analog hurrah of our beloved music while we still can.

Oh? Was the sale of 300 million hula-hoops in 18 months a "minor" phenom ?
If Americans had the SLIGHTEST interest in the intrinsic value of music the jazz and classical market would not be 2-3 %.

IMO you just don't understand the tsunamic effect of the "next thing" in USA.

APPLE sold 10 million of the new iPhone in one day.
Not a hundred people really needed one .

If it is not completely fad why have there been almost no new vinyl releases of classical? Is classical music over or are the current crop of musicians no good?

Sure there are more hi-fi tables but those came about because there is more material, the more material cam about because of the hipsters. If the market suddenly dropped ~80% would the hi-fi vendors continue to make as many turntable options as today? Probably not.

Go to the single largest independent music store in America, Ameoba. Look around and tell me what you see? A huge rock album section and tiny jazz and classical lp section (both new and used). Is vinyl making a comeback because it is the superior rock format?

BTW I've seen hipsters in Asia and Europe. They don't just live in Brooklyn, but the ones in Brooklyn surely have set the tone.

Being a vinyl lover, regret that I have put myself in the camp that the vinyl resurgence is just a fad.

Go to vinyl dominated forums and look at the vast amount of posters who have obtained their first TT yet are completely unaware they need a phono stage. These folks are not interested in quality sound reproduction. Afraid they are just hipsters. Go to used record shows and try to find a vendor who actually has brought a quality player to demo his records with? They are all the equivalent of Fisher Price models. Now look at the people buying these used records and demoing them on this cheap equipment. Again, its been my observation that they are mostly young hipsters. I recently found a 12", 45 rpm, Japanese pressing of a Paul McCartney tune I really like for $30. The vendor offered to demo it on what seriously looked like a Kenner Close 'n Play! I told if he did, I wouldn't buy the record.

Read somewhere that 60% of LP collectors have no intention of even playing the record. From what I see at shows, I tend to believe this.

Sadly its just a fad.

"Go to vinyl dominated forums and look at the vast amount of posters who have obtained their first TT yet are completely unaware they need a phono stage. These folks are not interested in quality sound reproduction. Afraid they are just hipsters."

Go to computer audio dominated forums and look at the vast amount of posters who have obtained their first high res download and are completely unaware they need software that supports the format. These folks are not interested in quality sound reproduction. Afraid they are just hipsters.

You might be right ZD. The bottom line, most people are just
not concerned about quality sound reproduction, period.
Audiophiles are an extreme minority and vinylphiles, even less.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy vinyl immensely and am anxiously
awaiting a new phono stage. But again, I agree with those that
its just a passing fad. Lot more hipsters out there than us.

Its not about being a "hipster", many/ most Americans have a COMPULSION to buy what is considered cool in the circle they roll with. The American dream is defined solely by consumption. It ain't complicated.

Go to computer audio dominated forums and look at the vast amount of posters who have obtained their first high res download and are completely unaware they need software that supports the format. These folks are not interested in quality sound reproduction. Afraid they are just hipsters.

Really? I don't think I've seen this. I doubt many hipsters but HD files, in fact I think very few people buy HD audio files. I imagine Chesky wishes HD Tracks annual sales were that of iTunes sales of Taylor Swift.

People that call themselves audiophiles are a strange group. There are those that love music and like it on good equipment and enjoy that, then there are those that have the "best" system and the rest are junk. Those are the ones that spend more on the equipment than the media that goes into. It seems like two very different camps.

Lp cover art...can't roll a joint on an iPod!

The core of the vinyl movement is not post modern ironic hipsters...that is the resurgence aspect...the faithful are those that didn't pitch their Lps in the 80s when cassettes peaked and CDs broke...but hey, if it takes kids in flannel, pbr caps, and mustaches to keep the dream alive...so be it!

"12-27-14: Paraneer
You might be right ZD. The bottom line, most people are just
not concerned about quality sound reproduction, period.
Audiophiles are an extreme minority and vinylphiles, even less.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy vinyl immensely and am anxiously
awaiting a new phono stage. But again, I agree with those that
its just a passing fad. Lot more hipsters out there than us."

I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. In my other post I said that when SACD was discontinued by Sony and DVD-A never really went anywhere, the result was a massive increase in TT sales. I should have been more clear. My comments were meant to be in context of high end audio. Like so many others, I was waiting for the next digital format to replace CD's. When the new formats failed, many of us were very disappointed and just went for the best sound possible that is the most likely to succeed. Obviously, everyone ran to vinyl. It was a matter of sound quality, not trends. As far as the whole hipster thing goes, I had no idea they were buying vinyl, or what they're motive is for doing so. To be honest, I'm not even sure I even know what a hipster is. lol. And I don't give a rat's ass either. Just keep them away from my system.

"12-27-14: Schubert
Its not about being a "hipster", many/ most Americans have a COMPULSION to buy what is considered cool in the circle they roll with. The American dream is defined solely by consumption. It ain't complicated."

After reading that Schubert, I think I get your other posts. I'm not sure where you can go with it. We work for our money (well, about half of us do, anyway), and we spend it however we see fit. That's pretty much how the world works, not just the US. How else would you have it? Personally, I don't think its any of my business as to what you do with your money. The American Dream is whatever we make of it, and nothing more. The system will never change, so why worry about it?

I worry about it because Wall Street speculation in food commodities, just for a start, has put a billion people on the edge of starvation .
There is a word for people who stand in huge lines all night to buy the latest iPhone or version of a war game, not to mention those who camp out for a week to get a cheap TV etc, that word is insane.

You think the American Dream is what you make it, but you are dancing to a tune you never wrote.

Schubert,

As always, the only thing I have for you is respect. But with regards to your last post, I don't know where you are getting your information from. First of all, Wall Street isn't a commodities market, but even if it were, I'm not sure that I could make the connection how it puts a billion people on the edge of starvation.

"There is a word for people who stand in huge lines all night to buy the latest iPhone or version of a war game, not to mention those who camp out for a week to get a cheap TV etc, that word is insane."

Personally, I would call them idiots. I think its a more accurate term. That said, do you really feel its fair to judge a person solely because they wait on such a line? I know a few people who go through that silly ritual on a regular basis, and they're reasons are completely different. Regardless, I don't think you can make an accurate judge of their personality based just on that action.

"You think the American Dream is what you make it, but you are dancing to a tune you never wrote."

I'll admit, I'm not the composer that you are. Few people are. But give me a break, as I do try my best.

I always enjoy you posts Zd542 and I mean no disrespect to you personally.

Our different outlooks come from the most basic premises.
You believe everything you have belongs to you and I believe everything I have belongs to God.
I may be wrong in which case I have lost little.
I may be right, in which case I have gained everything.

IMO waiting in line to waste 500 bucks when others have nothing to eat says all there is to say.
Not that I am a saint, I worry if my excuse that I needed my
1ittle 10K system to listen to the great Christian masterpieces of Bach, Schutz and Monteverdi will fly.

Lets try and not be too didactic or judgemental...people do questionable things all the time...stay up.all night for concert tickets, wait in line for hours at trendy restaurants, purchase overpriced Bose componets, etc...but that is their choice and their right...sure there are those that think audiophile forums are for weirdos.

12-27-14: Phasecorrect
Lp cover art...can't roll a joint on an iPod!

I would not recommend grinding send(white or grey) or rolling joint on album cover art if you want to keep it mint or near-mint. Not great idea doin' it on vinyl surface either, because the send can get stuck in the grove and so can pieces of buds that can be sticky depending on type or grade. Even if you use junk vinyl, it's still desirable to consume the whole thing without leaving anything between groves...:-)

Happy New Year party folks and remember that drugs(even including mary jane) can be addictive and may require some time in rehab to quit:-) !

12-28-14: Schubert

IMO waiting in line to waste 500 bucks when others have nothing to eat says all there is to say.
____________________________________________________
Someone waiting in line to spend $500, someone is in line at the shelter or church to get free meal, another one doesn't know at all where to get neither $ or food and stays hungry. It's not news at all, but what is relevance?

To alert people to the fact there might be judgements doesn't mean you think you are the judge.

I like my digital rig...it sounds friggin' great maybe due to the re-clocking or the DAC's power supply or amp tubes or something, but I'll say it again: LPs won't play on anything but a turntable (making digital copies of them will not be done by me...life is too short, and that seems like a lame idea anyway) so when I want to play my LPs I've owned forever on my table the sound (and the music) blows me away every damn time...pops, clicks, bite me, and just shut the hell up. 1969 "The Band"...1968 "Jeff Beck Group"...Jethro Tull "Stand Up"...Steely Dan "Gaucho"...some greasy Yo Yo Ma solo Bach...uh huh...oh yeah...yo MAMA!

I think the wrong question has been asked here. The right question would have been "would cd's even be invented today?" The answer to that is obvious. Oh and what's a "hipster" anyway? I know what a hippy is. I am pretty sure vinyl is not about being "cool". I am NOT cool. I am also certain it is the mid 50yr olds and up that keeps vinyl going. I am also certain that they(me) are not the group kids(hipsters) emulate. Many mid 50 plus do not even own an iPhones. As far as wether great new and classic rock exists or not get your head(ears) out of the sand. Vinyl is not about being unable to enjoy new technology. Just the celebration of a great older one. No reason they can not coexist. Vinyl is an experience. Digital is background music. Don't get me wrong I have a first class(in my view) digital front end. I love it. But when I have the choice and I am listening to music I choose vinyl. 2015 the year of vinyl! Or something like it....

We all have our guilty pleasures...safe new year to all!...and remember a taxi beats a dwi everytime...cheers!

Pkoegz,

For your pleasure. http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Hipster

These are the people solely responsible for the resurgance in vinyl. If it weren't the vinyl sales would still be what they were 10 or 15 years ago. Existing yes, but no way would there be as many choices as we have now. If you notice on the bottom of the page of things you need to be a hipster, turntable, followed by polaroid camera.

Should we have a discussion on the quality of polaroid photos or will we at least all agree they are pretty bad. And yes, sales of polaroid film packs is going through the roof, not by Polaroid though. The hipsters waited until they got out of the market before it became cool.

vinyl(record/albums) not on the list. Just turntables. So I am guessing, it is just the appearance of and not the actual usage/interest/spinning of vinyl records. So in my mind that would tend to disprove your point. Besides it also suggest you do not take the list to seriously. So spin'm if you gotum. Besides I think Polaroid cameras are cool📼📱🚵📷😎🔊. can you believe it no scarves or tattoos

What about flannel shirts and irony?...I had no idea how useful the hipsters are.

So Jack White's Lazaretto set the record for sales of vinyl for 1 week at 40,000. Biggest one week sales of a LP ever. I wonder what the demographics on that album looked like?

If it is anything like the people that go to Jack White concerts, it is not 50 year old audiophiles.

more hipster irony explained

Um, I bought it! 59yrs. Thanks for the reminder. Pulling out for a spin.

Lazaretto is a DR10 per the dynamic compression rating. That is not bad for a rock album, I wish it were more like a DR12 to add a little to the subtlety but that won't happen for awhile I suppose. Louder i better, right?

It is a good album. It is also good to have a woman in Detroit, LA and Nashville, just like Jack.... ;)