Oden 2 power cord even more..extortion
Wow, $10k+ cables
I’m a true cables believer. I do believe they can make (significant) improvement to system but $10,000+ for a single power cord or a pair of interconnect? Cmon now
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duddley, right. But you need to know when to stop upgrading cables and cords and proceed further with active components upgrades. I currently have $2.4k retail pair of interconnects between $1k preamp and $2.5k power amp and I think that's about enough. I also have $2k retail power cord on the power amp and $900 retail power cord on the preamp. Another $2.4k retail the same interconnects go from the source to the preamp. This already looks crazy but recently I had to upgrade two pairs of interconnects because the difference I heard was so big. |
The description of the Nordost Odin1 is very much like the first power cord bewgow sent me. Impressively solid imaging, incredibly detailed, extremely fast and extended, and with excellent dynamics- but thin, especially in the bass, so that the overall impression was tipped up or hyped rather than smooth and balanced. But then the second version Supernova eliminated all those faults while raising the bar even a tiny little bit higher, with rock solid imaging only this time with subterranean bass, full body, and liquid smooth top end. |
I was of the same opinion until I auditioned Ansuz C2 and D2 PCs and Interconnects. Not quite $10K (list), but not far from.
I now have a full loom of C2's.
All I can tell you is I do not think I could have invested the money in any other part of the system and achieved more gratifying results. You really can't know the full potential of your system until you put in great cables. I recommend obtaining loaners from a dealer, for whichever brands you are interested in, and hear for your self in your own system. And in the case of Azus, dealer discounts of between 30% - 60% are not uncommon. |
You nailed it @rspyder !! I love these posts. The contrarians who poo-poo the efficacy of expensive cables often appear in other posts questioning the merits of expensive audio products. They are either disgruntled with their lot in life (e.g. a spouse who wears the proverbial pants, a wallet that squeaks so loud they hate to open it, etc.) or their skills of self-persuasion require constant exercising with selfish expectations of indulgence on our part. Not having a fact-based opinion because it's foreclosed by those circumstances, however, doesn't prevent them from expressing their frustration-based comments. |
@rspyder, Great and articulate feedback concerning your individual experience with cables. I also have a hybrid in terms of mixed cables. I just added a 1 meter XLR Audioquest Fire cable between my Aesthetix Io Eclipse and Octave Jubillee preamp. This cable replaced my beloved Audioquest Sky’s that I have owned for years. I use pure silver custom built Neotech speaker cables, and use Tempo electric ICs between Octave Jubilee preamp and amps, McIntosh Mc2301s. In terms of cable character, based on my humble experiences, I have tried many cables over the years, and mostly what I have learned, is that cable capacitance, shielding, and connectors, the way they are connected to the cable, can have an influence on the sound. I kicked out notably high end cables when installed in my system and felt that they were flat in sound and muddied the bass, or reduced the bass qualities. The Neotech pure copper ICs with WBTs, either copper or silver connectors, constantly remained in my system as my default reference. The Skys changed that some, they provide me the natural qualities of sound you described with the Odin 2. The similarities between these cables which exhibit natural and organic sound, seem to me to be perhaps low capacitance. I know that’s not all, it’s the combined ingredients and interaction with the system which will determine the final sound. I guess, what I mean to say, is that cables on either side of the price spectrum can sound better or worse in ones system, depending on the combined or totality of the components in the system and the type of cable build. I would love to demo a cable such as an Odin in the future to gauge what influence, or lack of influence, it has on the sound on my system, and how it compares with my current benchmark of sound qualities with my cables. Nice system. Previously, I owned Octave MRE130s with Super Black Box, and Octave HP 500SE preamp with built in phono. Off-topic Question? What tubes are you using in your Octave Jubilee? Send me a PM if you like to discuss the Jubilee. Not many owners on the forums, Thanks. |
@rspyder They are either disgruntled with their lot in life (e.g. a spouse who wears the proverbial pants, a wallet that squeaks so loud they hate to open it, etc.) or their skills of self-persuasion require constant exercising with selfish expectations of indulgence on our part. Not having a fact-based opinion because it's foreclosed by those circumstances, however, doesn't prevent them from expressing their frustration-based comments. You assume a lot. First I do poo poo the idea of $1K + per ft, cables. Second, I've been happily married for some 45 years now and even though she doesn't share quite the same level of enthusiasm in audio as I, she is quite liberal with my indulgences. So that out of the way - it could be that some of us who poo poo these ridiculously high dollar cables and cords have been, or are, in industries that depend on cabers for their livelihoods or produce such cables - none of which, for any purpose, cost thousands of dollars per foot. Not in the performance of the music you listen to, not in the production of the music you listen to, not in the airline industry or even in the air-space industry or in the CERN. To each their own, but not in any other hobby or industry would anyone be gullible enough to spend thousands of dollars per foot for cable or power cords - just keeping it real....Jim |
I love these posts. The contrarians who poo-poo the efficacy of expensive cables often appear in other posts questioning the merits of expensive audio products. They are either disgruntled with their lot in life (e.g. a spouse who wears the proverbial pants, a wallet that squeaks so loud they hate to open it, etc.) or their skills of self-persuasion require constant exercising with selfish expectations of indulgence on our part. Not having a fact-based opinion because it's foreclosed by those circumstances, however, doesn't prevent them from expressing their frustration-based comments. It's not about whether they can or cannot afford to pay more. Hobbyists who operate within a prescribed budget are quite content with value-based high performance systems and work diligently to accomplish that end. They bear no grudge against those who chose to spend more. This describes most of the members in our large and active local audio club. With that therapeutic diatribe out of the way, let me offer an experienced-based assessment. I have a full loom of SR Galileo UEF interconnects. Their contributions to the sonic performance of my system have been very significant and have drawn countless kudos from members of our audio club. However, I was quick to question the performance delta of the Nordost Odin 2 interconnects because they are over twice the price. So I too have expressed scepticism when it comes to price vs. performance. Surely, they can't be twice as good. After all, this is a hobby is defined by the principle of diminishing marginal returns. Then a friend lent me a single pair of 1M Odin XLRs. I put them between my Esoteric K-01X and Octave Jubilee Preamp. The after-effect was jaw dropping. Not nuanced or subtle. It was dramatic. Power, transient speed and overall impact across the frequency range was remarkable and immediately apparent. However, I found the Odin 1s to be a bit thin and favoured the higher notes, which to my ears detracted from overall balance, neutrality and natural warmth. Another member of our club then lent me a 1M XLR pair of Odin 2s, which I swapped out to compare the two top Nordost offerings. He said Nordost with the Odin 2 addressed that sonic characteristic found in its Odin1 line of cables. Again the difference was immediate and remarkable. The virtues of Odin 1s transient speed, dynamics and percussive impact and a noticeably lower noise floor was married with a more balanced delivery of frequency response. Not only was a further proverbial veil pulled back to reveal things not previously heard, but all things became both more palpable and real. Voices were more dimensional, complete and believable. Symbols splash with the true sound of medal and resonate until the echo disappears into the background. Bass notes whether borne from strings, woodwinds or drum skins had more presence, fleshed-out dimensionality and air. In short, even though cables are passive device, a single 1M pair of Odin 2 interconnects has delivered far better outcomes than many upgrades I've made with active devices (i.e. components and speakers) and after spending more than the difference between my resident cables and the Odin 2. So I bought a pair after that trial and assessment. The sentiment among our club members is it's mind-boggling that Odin 2 can have such an impact for a passive device. Do I need to spend more by switching the whole loom from Galileo to Odin 2? Some systems have shown that more does mean more. In my case, the benefits of just this one pair are so fully realized that I'm ok to let the Odin 2 commingle its magic with the Galileos. They play so well together - literally. Maybe because of their common appeal to the heavens. |
A $10,000 cable? Sure! Is it worth $10k based upon parts and labor? Hell no. Is it worth $10k if you really love the way it sounds and the money isn’t a big deal? Maybe... Better than a $500 cable? Nope. Better than a $2,000 cable? Nope. Cables get better as they get more expensive? Nope. Different cables sound different? Yep. A cheaper cable may sound better than a way more expensive one? Yep. It depends upon your particular system as to which cables sound better? Yep. You can hear things that were not there before is you listen for them? Yep. You can hear things that are not there at all if you listen for them? Yep. You will dearly want to believe that spending more $$$ means better sound? Yep. Does that mean it must be better? Not necessarily. What there are for sure are DIFFERENCES-- so go with what you like, what you can afford, and then forget about all of the rest of it, relax, and listen to the damn music! Isn’t that what this is all about? More money does not equal better beyond when certain thresholds of quality (parts, design, build) have been achieved-- unless you "believe" that it does, then, maybe, it does. |
It is a puzzle. I've "A-B" tested home-made 10 & 12 gauge (from a McIntosh to Revel F328Be speakers, for e.g.) along with audioquests, and custom length from Blue Jean Cables http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ I'm no engineer, nor did I employ any meters I just A-B and listened to several different sources. I could tell an appreciable difference from my homemade cables to audioquest or Blue Jean. But audioquest price at $4000.00 vs. about $200.00 was not discernable to my ears. Additionally, I had one audioquest terminal fail (you can purchase 4 of their silver banana replacement ends for about $40-50) and was shocked that the connection was simply set-screws into twisted wire. For all the hype about their cables, the connections are worse than homemade. Blue Jean Cables use "ultrasonically-welded" terminations and they are impressive. In re. to headphone, IEM, headphone amp / dac... I've tried several high-end connections and cannot tell any difference. A good cable, with a welded termination is great. Folks with better hearing, more discriminating audio ears may hear improvements. Happy listening! |
While I do believe there is a difference in cables and cables can be system dependent, I will say what I have always said: Everyone is free to spend what they want or what they can on their hobby but the fact is: No where else is there used $1K+ per ft. cables for anything. Not at CERN, not at NASA, not in the recording industry, not in the communications industry - only here in the, sometimes delusional, world of the audiophile is there a such thing as thousands of dollars per foot cords and cables....Jim |
I agree very much with bullot and several other that the upper cabels are indeed very very pleasing. I took a Tata Labs eco Zero ic 20 k to a great system 300 k where is placed a ic worth about 10k and the system shined so much, we could not stop laughing and wondering. It felt that we somehow had found the missing link for this system. The guy who owned the system had had the same experience when the 10k cable was installed and he took out a 6k cable. It may only be small changes if you use the % measurement but think it like this, eat your good meal totally without salt and taste how that goes despite you only miss 0,01%. I experience that the harmony in the system chain must be intact and as the signal transfer is extremely difficult, building / developing extreme good cabels will cost a lot. Unfortionatly in Ultra highend there is no way around the pricy cabels yet but the lower priced cabels are offering better and better performance as they learn from the big ones, as always. The wireless technologies are also becoming better and better so soon we might have these in Ultra highend as well. |
I have tried a number of very high end cables, including interconnects, power cords, and speaker cables. I'm not rich by any means but if you purchase smart you can "rent" these for a while and get your money back when you sell shortly after......and they do make a difference. On occasion they can be fabulous! (ie High Fidelity UR and Stage III Kraken) But lets be real here....it's not like they take a Volkswagen and turn it into a Ferrari. If you have your system fine tuned and get one of these cables you might be looking at the last 5-10% performance...and in high end audio that can be a pretty pleasing 5-10%. That's fine if you have deep pockets but for most people that last bit just isn't worth the price of admission. The goal for me is to get 95% of the performance of these uber cables at 30-50% of the cost....and lets be honest, nobody pays msrp for these cables. Many $10K cables can be had at around 60-70% of msrp if you can find a "demo" cable from a dealer. Then, if you can find a second hand cable you might be at 40% of the msrp. For some reason these manufactures list their cable very high, thinking that everyone will call it the best because it's the most expensive.....then they deep discount so you feel good about the deal you got!! It's their way of separating themselves from the hords. But again, there are two ways to beat the system...….find a fabulous deal on an uber cable (it happens) or find a giant killer at an even better price (that happens too). The only people paying anywhere near msrp are the people with deep pockets and no patience, and must have it NOW. |
Margins vary but typically the actual materials + labor cost is 1/6 of retail with the retailer making the largest slice generally. Now I worked as a buyer one summer for a highly regarded brand but only got to peek behind one curtain. The cost of the super high-purity wire is rather significant and quite a bit of it sourced thru Mr. Cardas if I am not mistaken. The minimum quantities for purchase are a significant commitment financially and to reach quantity discounts even greater. Hand construction in the case of a Litz cable; a multi-layered helical topology that also involved anti-static, and anti-microphonic materials was considerably labor and skill intensive. Our terminations were also hand-made from solid high purity stock which too required considerable investment before anything was constructed. Cost of research and development is where most end users are unawares but particularly costly in the case of machine-made cable where specialized looms and tooling investments can be great. Quality control; a particular job category rapidly diminishing in America may also add costs. All in all to say you can get your monies worth in the end but boutique pricing as with many luxury products can also be highly inflated. Just a few things to think about. I like to observe Sturgeon's Law; 90% or everything is BS. You've got to do your due diligence and let the buyer beware. YMMV, Music is the best. |
...perhaps a more worthless response is the enjoyment of 'listening to' y'all attempting to validate your choices of ic/pc cables assembled by virgins in sterile facilities using zircon tweezers at the dead of night during the dark of the moon.... Of course, the materials used would make NASA drool IF they could source such. The next level, of course, will be supercooled ones using a refrigeration unit that will need special isolation risers to keep said cables from shattering the floor they're above, not to mention the isolation sleeves that will keep your equipment intact.... Oh, and don't forget the 440 VAC line needed to run the 'fridge. You'll have to compete with the Covid vaccine suppliers for the 'fridge, too.... I can't wait to hear how 'special' all that sounds, so get on it, huh? |
But I think OCC single crystal wire is the best wire on the marketI’m going to speculate here... This person has probably auditioned a small fraction of the cables out here, and furthermore most of us have auditioned a small fraction of them especially the really expensive ones. I would go along with "best I’ve tried" or "best I’ve found for the money" or something similar, but to declare them the "best on the market" is a bit of a stretch.. OK... a HUGE stretch. Kind of a worthless observation. Which is no more worthless than the OP’s worthless observation. Substitute car, wine, watch, shoes, or any other expensive thing that caters to people who have a lot of money and you end up at the same place. Some people pay more for a bottle of wine and think nothing of it.. and that ends up in the toilet a few hours later. Pointing out the obvious fact that a lot of rich people spend (waste?) a lot of money on things they don’t need is the definition of a worthless observation. Look through the archives and google around to find countless, pointless posts like this. So why do people start these threads over and over and over when you get the same responses over and over and over? Like this worthless response. |
Well, I can’t comment on a $10,000 power cord or interconnect as I haven’t gone there yet (no plans in the near or distant future either). What I can tell you is you may not need to go there unless you have some "spare change" for your $800,000 system then these $10,000 cables a piece will appear normal. The power cords in my system cost about $4,000/piece (retail) and they are worth every penny. Well, the message is you may not need to spend up to $10k to acquire great results. Half of that or lower will get the job done too. |
Other brands that I would like to try in my system are Echole and Stage III but they are so expensive even lower models and used that it is unlikely unless I get very lucky. I don't pay more than $1k for cables. Still use original very old Purist Colossus speaker cables and plan on keeping it that way. Sure, Neptune would be better, but again - cost, and it would probably be unwise to do it before upgrading speakers. And since I would like to upgrade to Kharma speakers...not going to happen soon, unfortunately. |
jafant, there is still one advantage that the Tchernov has over the Wywires - it has a bit more of 'the power of delivery'. And possibly another advantage - slightly more high frequency extension. But overall, yes, I find Wywires Platinum more balanced and elegant. This is in all transistor system with analog sources, I can only speak of this particular set-up. Both Wywires and Tchernov work great in a chain with Purist Neptune, you just have to figure out which one goes where. |
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I don't usually weigh in on threads talking about pricing of the high end (except for the cost of high end cartridges which are consumables though I use them). But, anyone who is already out on the cutting edge and has the wherewithal can spend limitless monies on the ancillaries (or don't consider them ancillary) to seek some small (or large) iota of improvement in what may already be a blue-sky system. Me, I'd rather put the money into records at this point-- my system is good, I use good cable, I'm not negativing those who reach for the stars, but having heard some crazy money systems over the decades, I was often left feeling I heard good hi-fi, not real music. There's an almost addictive aspect to the upgrading even within more reasonable budgets, getting gear lust (what do the guitar guys call it? Same thing, isn't it?). It's your money. Use it how you see fit. |
You know, I got Tchernov Reference interconnects which are in essence high grade military cables. I also have Purist Neptune fluid and Wywires Platinum cables, and overall prefer them both to the Tchernov, though the Wywires and the Tchernov are close enough to each other, especially with analogue source. Best cables for NASA and military might not be best cables for music reproduction and maybe even recording. Signal transmission is a very complex thing, |
Einstein Let me run that through my gibberish decoder ring. Sure enough- gibberish. Sometimes (not often) they learn the error of their ways, make amends, drop the attitude and learn something new. I know. Don’t happen often. Not holding my breath. But you never know....It’s a funny thing, I always find the posts of the people you criticize more interesting than your own. In fact, I don’t know how even you could find your REPEATEDLY telling us about your rubber bands and springs interesting. You criticize so many people anyone would think you are unhappy here. |
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