neutrality vs. realism

I've only been a real 2-channel "nut" for about three years now, and up until a few months ago I thought I had a good handle on these audio terms we use for reference.

Now I'm not sure.

I always hear these arguments between neutral and musical. Doesn't neutral imply that it's somewhere in the middle? If so, what's on the other side? UNmusical? Therefore, wouldn't we always want musical?

How does one determine neutral? Is there a standard?

Why is neutral referred to as being "real"? I've been to some live performances that are very musical.

Are "live and "real" the same? When you attend a "live" concert or performance where multiple mikes, amps, electriconic instruments and mixing equipment is employed, is that really..."real"?

Therefore, is it only performances utilizing acoustic instruments considered real? can the venue or hall impose such characteristics as warm or neutral?

I really started to rethink these terms recently when I was trying different tubes and cables in my system.

Overly detailed voices seemed to fool me more into thinking the person was in the same room with me breathing into a mike. But that's just it. A mike. When you talk to a person, even close up they never sound like these high-rez recordings. So is that real? Voices that are fuller and a little less detailed on top sound to me more "organic" [oh no, that term], but sometimes do less of a job of sounding like they're in the same room.

Terms like warm, cold, bright, dark, detailed, dull or veiled, airy, holographic make some sense to me.

But NEUTRAL, LIVE and REAL are much harder to pin down.

So, I've come to this REALization. There is no standard or paradigm, just what sounds good to the listener. And we shouldn't argue about these terms because they are all so vague and relative to each person's tastes and perceptions.

I'm not saying they're completely useless, because they do offer a good reference. But too much is placed on their importance. They're not, they're just descriptions.

Sorry for sounding like Andy Rooney.

I read the original post as a restatement of the old question: "Do you want your system to make your music sound good (musical), or do you want your system to accurately portray what's in the grooves (neutrality). Tok2000 makes an excellent point about the quality of our music software being a major determinate of musicality/neutrality. Is a system really a high end system if it makes a shrill recording sound warm and pleasant? The accurate reproduction of an input signal should be the goal of all high end equipment (EQ devices excepted). Any sonic deviation from this definition of neutrality should be considered distortion. The problem with this line of reasoning is that we don't have a comprehensive set of tests and measurements that can accurately describe the human music listening experience. Some interpret this predicament to mean that we should ignore measurements and rely entirely upon our own individual hearing. Instead I think it merely means we, as both listeners and equipment designers, still have much to research and learn about music reproduction.

Indeed, Onhw -- but if you listne to a lot of acoustic music as I do, then a violin is or isn't. Badly or well rendered onto the support (vinyl, or digital). However, when you have electronic musical equip & sound effects, it's a different matter!

Gregm, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying a poorly recorded violin still sounds like a violin? Or it doesn't sound like a violin? To clarify my early post, "to make your music sound good", by that I mean should your system alter the music signal in such a way as to make even widely different quality recordings conform to the listener's preconceived notion of what a given instrument should sound like. In my mind this would make your system the equivalent of comfort food. It's emotionally satisfying and filling, but it's also non-challenging and eventually boring.

Onh, I agree with your rendition of "comfort food". But, yes, a poorly recorded violin still sounds like a violin -- because it's acoustic & you know, in conjunction with the other instruments, what it is: you have the live experience of the violin vs the cello, etc... But when I get to eletronic instruments, & heavy mastering, I can't really tell what the engineers have done. I don't have a live, sonic "benchmark" to refer to. There, the production qualities (or mastering "tricks"?) are part of the end product: heighten the 3-kHz region, give some boost to bass... how can I tell if my system is reproducing "correctly" what the producer(s) intenteded? Cheers