I'm confused

Ooops, sorry to confuse you more Lej1447!! :-)

In my opinion, most people view bass reproduction in a monitor or main speakers as secondary to how it performs with everything above those frequencies. This is just my opinion, others may disagree.

I use ProAc monitors in my music system because of the way they reproduce midrange and how they soundstage, and because they sound great with vocals and acoustic instruments. I do ssometimes use a subwoofer with them to add some bottom end weight for music, but I don't have a crossover in the path of the ProAcs because it would muddy their great midrange. I let them run full range, becasue I never have the need to crank them to movie sound levels just for music.

For home theater however, the criteria in picking main, center and surround speakers probably wouldn't follow those guidelines because reproducing the crashing effects of movies and a jazz quartet are two different animals. Because of the great demands a movie score can put on any speaker, whether monitor or full range, I think more emphasis would be placed on power handling and the actual placement of the speakers to create an effective HT experience. Picking speakers that are tonally agreeable with you is important as well, but the other factors I mentioned would probably be more heavily weighed with HT speakers because of movie soundtrack dynamics and proper placement for the "theater" experience.

My viewpoint is obviously biased as I place much more importance on my 2channel rig than my HT system. I did a little research on your speakers and it seems to me that weren't intended for "true" full range use because of their rated 45Hz bottom end, aluminum cabinet and "in-wall/wireless" classification. Running them in this fashion could strain them sooner than a speaker designed to be full range if pushed. One thing you could try is to set the main speakers to large when 2 channel listening and switch back to small for impactful movies. An interesting review of the ARs in different HT applications can be read here:

http://www.audioweb.com/Newsstand/SensibleSound/ARPhantom83.asp

Many people receive more enjoyment from HT than music and spend big bucks to create an immersive movie viewing experience, and that's cool too. They invest in floorstanding main speakers like the NHT VT series or Aerial Acoustics 8B or 10Ts that are capable of excellent bass so they can set them to "large" and ONLY the LFE information goes to the sub/s. Yes, there is material in a movie soundtrack that may sound better coming from 2 good full range mains while leaving that which is specifically intended for LFE to be handled by the sub. But in a small room like yours or mine where space is limited and the benefits of such a set up are questionable or impractical, going with all satellites and a sub makes more sense.

I hope this response isn't too haphazard and makes some sense to you, heheh.

Also, Buscis2's recommendation about looking into the quality and quantity of AC current available to you has merit. Big amps in systems producing big bass especially those for movies with multiple channels put incredible demands on the amount of current drawn from the wall. That's the reason many audiophiles might run their source, DAC and preamp into a power conditioner, but run their power amp directly into the wall. Many audiophiles claim that power conditioners reduce the amount of immediate current on demand, thus limiting dynamics during spikes in the music. I've noticed this phenomena as well, and that's why the Bryston 4B that powers my subwoofer doesn't go through a power conditioner but directly to the wall with a good power cord. Many audiophiles go a step further and have their wall receptacles upgraded and even their house rewired to accommodate power amps that draw a lot of current.

Sorry to keep piling explanation upon explanation on you, but there are many issues that might be involved. I would still recommend looking at the simplist experiment first, and that is setting all your speakers to "small". If the problem with your amp going into clipping and restricted dynamics remains, then reevaluate and consider a more powerful multichannel amp or reconfiguring your power conditioner/power cord set up.

Good luck for now,
Dean

Buscis: If the system was pulling as much power as you suggest, either the 15 amp breaker would be popping or there would be noticeable distortion of both the audio and video presentation on a regular basis. I do agree that there is a lot of gear hooked up to one outlet, but i really don't think that this is really that abnormal outside of "audiophileland" or "videophileland".

As to the wattage levels that you assigned the various gear, i think that they are a bit off in some respects. Most HT based subs use switching amps that are 90% efficient. There are some that are rated even higher i.e. at 94% if i recall correctly. Even under full load and working at an efficiency level of 90%, such an amp would be pulling 165 watts. At anything less than full throttle, it would be pulling quite a bit less.

As far as source components go, most of these devices are well under 45 watts at most. Most devices run somewhere between 15 watts and 35 under full load.

In terms of running another amp, you have to remember that we are removing power draw from the receiver for the two or three channels that the amp is taking over. Granted, i DO expect the amp to pull more power than the receiver does, but given the relatively low bias that most multi-channel amps operate at, it should still be within reason.

By the way, a 15 amp breaker running at 117 volts will allow 1755 watts to pass for an extended period of time before tripping. The same breaker running at 120 volts will trip at 1800 watts. I don't know where you came up with your figures, but they are incorrect. My figures are based on Ohm's Law and "theoretical" ratings of the breakers in terms of their "trip points".

Other than that, i do agree that another AC line would help things out. I still think that the receiver is anemic though.

Gunbei: Your suggestion about using the speakers in "small" mode is excellent. This will take much of the strain off of the receiver and may even allow the speakers to achieve a higher SPL AND do so in a cleaner fashion. Since the speakers would be seeing less power at lower frequencies, driver excursion and heat build-up would be reduced, allowing for both faster and more linear response at mid and high frequency levels. Since i sincerely doubt that these speakers are truly capable of deep bass due to their design and cabinet size, this should really help things out. Good thinking and a wise suggestion. I wish i would have thought of it. : ) Sean
>

Here is my update. On my AVR, I changed the speakers to small rather than large, changed the bass to subwoofer only rather than to a combination of main speakers and subwoofer, set the dynamic to normal rather than max, and adjusted the crossover higher on Denon and subwoofer. I poped in The Lord of The Rings, and it sounded rather flat, not as dynamic. Bass was really nondirectional rather than coming from all speakers, especially the front. The voice of Gandorff lacked the warmth that he used to have. In fact, he almost sounded like my 2-yr-old daughter as she was my reference guide. On the bright side, speech was not as muddy.

When I changed all settings back, it sounded really really good, much more dynamic, except when I pushed the limit by turning the volume knob down to -24db. The left main speaker popped twice quickly during the heavy bass.

How much power is enough? It depends. In my case, perhaps a little more. I have wood floor. On the wall, I have a plasma and two rear speakers. When I watch movie, I often leave my window openned for ventilation and my French doors openned for the cool breeze at night. Most importantly, I leave them openned so my head does not spin w/ buzzing sound from heavy bass at the end of the movie. I just couldn't resist the blasting effect.

Tonight, I am no longer confused. I have learned much more from you all. I learn about the limitations. It is a vital process in getting to the truth. It is a concensus that my Denon needs an amp. I am sure with the amp, I can experience MORE dynamic sonic spectrum. I can hear voice with warmth (not muddy); at the same time, I can hear the crystal sound the moment the dropping pin makes contact w/ the rim of the glass. It is a concensus that I need a dedicate source of strong and clean AC.

More importantly, I learn that Marty9876 has been right all this time. "Pick another hobby," he wrote. I reluctnatly learn about my fundamental limitation. It is called cash flow. After all these consultations, I have learned that it takes a lot more cash to get just a little closer in achieving perfection.

Perhaps, if I am good through out the rest of the year, Santa Clause will bring me a nice amp to hook up to my gears. In the meantime, I ought to lower the volume as I ought to mingle more with my nice neighbors.

Please take my remark "Pick another hobby," with a large pile of salt.

Really what I meant is some people are perfectly fine with most any given gear(they are not reading this...) and, myself at least, find the limits of my gear and try to learn why the gear has limits/causes of such limits and how to increase such limits.

To follow this tricky road leads to one end point, a new piece of equiment. Equiment cost money, sometimes a great deal of money. The best I can do is to try and spend my money wisely.

I knew your thread was coming, things not sounding good. Please try the "flat" settings for a week. The human ear/mind has a great ability to adjust. The settings you had were "correct". Right now you are use to listening to a majorly inflated/hyped up soundstage.

" The left main speaker popped twice quickly during the heavy bass"

I have been meaning to say something about clipping. Clipping is way, way bad. This is how equiment dies.

Best of Luck,

Marty

Interesting results Lej1447! I have a few questions regarding the test you conducted.

You said after setting the 8.3s to small you adjusted the crossover higher on BOTH the Denon and Polk PSW350.

When setting your speakers to small and allowing the Denon to perform all the bass management, you should BYPASS the crossover in your powered sub by going "direct in" otherwise you'll have a phenomena known as "cascading filters", which is two crossovers one after the other performing the same task near the same crossover point. This should be avoided because it can hamper the performance of the subwoofer and cause strange dips or humps near that area.

One way to avoid this is to either use the "direct in" jack on the powered sub which in most cases completely bypasses its low pass filter, thus allowing the Denon to handle all the bass management with only one low pass filter in the mix. I noticed that the PSW350 has three inputs. Speaker level, LFE and line level. In your case you should be using LFE because your intended use is for movies. I don't know however if this input bypasses Polk's crossover.

If the LFE input doesn't bypass the subs crossover, then crank it as high as it will go so the Denon's and Polk's filters aren't close enough to affect each other. An example would be setting the Denon's crossover to 80Hz and turning the Polk's all the way up to its 160Hz max setting. You'll still have cascading filters, but this configuration wouldn't be as bad as if they were near the same crossover point. When I was using the NHT SA-3 amp/crossover which is intended for use with my NHT SW3P passive subwoofer, this is exactly what I did since the SA-3 doesn't have a direct in jack. Now that I'm using a Bryston 4B instead of the SA-3, I go directly from the amp to the sub without any filters in the path.

Also, you said you turned the crossover on your Denon up. To what frequency setting? If I had your system I would experiment with LFE settings on your Denon starting in the 80Hz range [if adjustable], this will aleviate much of the bass duty your ARs are enduring while retaining the qualities you like. I don't know if it's the same for your unit, but I see that the AVR-2803 has switchable low pass settings of 40, 60, 80, 100, and 120Hz. If you had set your Denon to 120Hz when you did your test, this could explain why Ian McKellan sounded like a little girl. No, not the OTHER reason, heheh! And, if your Denon was set to this while the Polk had a slightly lower setting these two things in combination could cause a "hole" or "suck out" at that frequency, thus the lack of warmth which is usually attributed to an upper bass hump. Also, try the 60Hz setting and see how that works.

Check all these issues pertaining to your LFE settings, because something as simple as this could be at the root of your dilemna.

In the end, it may just be your Denon. After all, its 90wpc rating is probably a bit optimistic and not an indication of its actual ability to supply dynamic power and high current on demanding movie tracks. It's like my old Integra GSR which had a high horsepower rating and could rev like a demon, but was dog at low RPMs because it had no low end torque at all.

Another thing that might complicate your situation as well is speaker AND subwoofer placement. If you haven't taken a lot of care in placement and set up, search on line for some guides for HT speaker placement. You'd be surprised how vital proper placement of all speakers and especially the subwoofer is to achieving a great movie experience. Yes, subwoofer placement is crucial and in my opinion the most difficult speaker to position.

Sean, quite frankly I'm stunned that you SAY you hadn't thought of the "small" setting for Lej1447's 8.3s. Over the years, I have enjoyed and learned immeasurably from your posts pertaining to 2 channel audiophilia. I'm very honored by you compliment!

Lej1447, if you think setting up a home theater is CONFUSING, don't ever take the step to 2 channel listening. I find this arena to be far more complex with endless upgrade paths and limitless permutations in search of musical bliss. But the rewards can be magic!

Keep at it!