Tube Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - Rogue Zeus/VTL-MB450


Hey Audiogoners,

First post to A-gon and I need your advice! I've researched this site extensively, read thousands of your threads, and purchased good product through you folks. So here goes.....

Bought a used pair of Maggie 3.6Rs -absolutely love them! [Chose over ML Odyssey, Ascent i (also liked), Maggie 1.6] They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub. I'm upgrading my stack from ss to tubes. Caught the addiction! Having listened to tubes while auditioning e-stats/planars, I've concluded that they just make the sound more "real life" -at least for my taste (go to alot of live shows). I just love that sound!

Also picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube pre-amp along with the 3.6s. Had no prior knowledge of VTL. The 2.5 presents a beautiful large deep soundstage (3D), brings everything to life, sounds tubey -not overly tubey. I've heard some pre-amps I like better (Viva Linea), but at a much higher price point.

So, I want to upgrade two things -Amp and CD

Amp:

Having had such good experience with VTL, I'm tempted to pick up a used pair of VTL-MB450s (at half list), never having heard them. Also considering Rogue Zeus (used)-listened through modest set of electronics/speakers. The Zeus is so powerful that it actually carried the entire system. Bass is tremendous -best I've heard in a tube amp so far. Could have been a tad more articulate in the mid/highs, and didn't present a deep soundstage, but I'm tending to attribute these limitations to the electronics/speakers that accompanied the setup. My sense is that the Zeus could power my 3.6s very well, and drive them to their potential. Zeus is also very well made. Liked the warm standby switchable mode as well as built-in tube biasing. Knocks -it's So friggin' heavy (even more of a monster in real life), & pumps out a ton of heat. Definitely an Uber-amp.

Is there anyone out there in Audiogondom who has listened to both the Rogue Zeus AND the VTL-MB450, and can give me a real life comparison???.....

Other products I've auditioned ...to give a sense of my listening tastes (please DO NOT BE OFFENDED as I'm not trying to knock a brand of gear you may own; it's all good):

ASL Hurricanes - listened opposite Zeus, w/better electronics/speakers. Found them to be more articulate (tubey) in the mids (real nice), lean highs, definitely light bass (compared to Zeus).

Jolida 3000 monos - sounded decent w/3.6s. Tad syrupy. Definitely not the bass slam/quickness of Zeus. Good sound none the less.

Sim Audio Moon W-5 (I know it's ss, but comes highly recommended with the 3.6s) - listened while auditioning Metronome tube CD (w/Moon stack, Triangles). The whole setup disappointed me. The sound was flat, not dimensional. Maybe it was the setup. I'm still stumped.

Can't find Wolcotts in my area. Haven't auditioned VAC.

So, VTL-450 or Rogue Zeus? And why?

Second question, CD.

Tubes?

I really like the Shanling 200 sound, but have heard consistently horrible stories (from 3 of 4 dealers) about reliability. Heard they've addressed firmware issues, but still leary about dropping bucks on a unit with double digit failure rate.

Others...
Metronome CDv2 demo - just sounded flat an uninspiring (maybe it was the system).
Jolida 100 modified - sounded good; lively, crisp, warm but not too tubey.
AMC DB6 modified (with an AMC DAC9 modified) - decent, but not as articulate or sweet as Shanling, not as crisp as Jolida, and didn't seem all that well built. I do like the DAC9 by itself though.
Eastern Electric Mini Max -good for the money, well built, but simply can't compare to Shanling sound.
Audio Research top loader -didn't enjoy w/Krell stack
Musical Fidelity 308 -beautiful crisp highs; maybe should audition w/tube stack.
Wadia 861, McCormick ($3K) -just didn't enjoy them

So, I'm stuck. I like the Shanling sound, but not its Word Of Mouth reliability.

Any other suggestions? Next on my audition list is the Cary 308t. Remember, I'm looking for that warm, lively, beautifully finished sound -but not too analytical.

Sim Audio Moon Eclipe? Rega Jupiter? Other?

Thank you folks.
angelsmtn
Hi Aroc:
In addition to the low sensitivity of the Magnepans, they also present an almost purely resistive load as opposed to reactive, which means that the driving amp must be able to supply lots of current. This is really not the forte of tube amps - even of the higher powered ones - unless you were to go with something BIG like the MB-750 or better yet the MB-1250.

You would probably be able to get away with using the amps you mentioned if your listening is mostly done at low volume levels, but there the Maggies are not performing at their best. These speakers need to be turned up a bit for them to start showing off their stuff. The 3.6R's are of a single ended driver design (they are driven by a set of magnets on one side of the element) with a relatively "heavy" membrane of a large surface area who 's either pushed or pulled. This makes it tougher on the amplifier to control the speaker and I am not talking about only the lower frequencies. This is what gives maggies' their less than stellar reputation on dynamics, (I repeat: lack of bynamics through-out the frequency range not just the bass) as stated above by Tireguy as well as attested to by many a Maggie lover.

Fortunately this is the one characteristic that can go from the minus column over to the positive in a decisive manner with the use of a very high powered SS amp. Some months ago there was a review I think in Ultra Audio (web based e-zine, you can do a search)on a high powered Innersound amp which the reviewer was impressed with when pairing it with the 3.6R's. I think he was more impressed with the Maggies rather than the amps in that particular pairing, which I think confirms that these speakers do really require huge amounts of power to truly shine. This was also my experience to some extent with the 1.6QR's when I fed them with more powerful amps; more liveliness, transparency, control (never tried them with 800W per side though - wish I could).
hello Tim I can understand your viewpoint now 100% I previously owned the bat vk-120 mono blocks the stereophile power measurement results were little over 60w @ 8ohms at 1% distortion level I believe anyway they couldn't drive my Dunlavy 5 speakers 91 db 4 ohms nominal load they blew fuses every 5 minutes bat went throgh the amps couple of times same results bat eventually refunded my money after talking about calling the FTC regarding their advertised power ratings accuracy.the 450 VTL I know is not even comparable to the bat powerwise.
At modest price points the higher powered amps sacrifice at a lot of purity compared to lower powered amps (tubes or soldistate) in my experience. I have no experience with the more expensive designs. Maybe purity is no longer a problem at those price points. With some amps it seems that you "sell your soul to the devil" as you get better frequency extremes, but the midrange may suffer. I love my maggies, but the tradeoffs in design and amplifier parings are causing me handfulls of hair. :-(
Aroc, I can't add anything new to this thread, only to reinforce what has already been said, particularly Tireguy's comments relating to high powered amps and specifically their capacity to deliver current.
I learned the hard way with my 3.6's, being stubborn as a mule I ignored peoples advice here, and splurged on a pair of Cary V12i Monoblocks, thinking that 200 tube watts would be plenty. Well the midrange sounded great, but the sound just wouldn't open up - stage depth and width were constricted and the sound was a little lifeless and bland.
I even tried vertical biamping with a pair of Perreaux amps, providing more watts than the Cary's, but still not enough!!
I even had a SS Mac 252 on home demo that puts out 250w into 4 and 8 ohms, I gave myself a hernia carrying it into the living room and the blasted thing shut down on thermal overload after 5 minutes of playing at moderate levels.
I'm now using a Krell FPB200, and although it technically is still only rated at 400w into 4 ohms, it does a much better job of opening the speaker up than anything previous. Based on my experience with the 200w Cary, I would guess that even a 450w amp like the VTL Mono's might be marginal. Remember also that as soon as the amp starts clipping you are going to start blowing fuses in the speakers.....I blew a dozen tweeter fuses using the Cary's and Perreaux's, even at modest volumes and even though the amps didn't sound strained in any way. I haven't lost a fuse yet with the Krell, (touch wood) and I play at even louder volumes.
Sell your soul to the devil, do what ever it takes, but get a pair of VTL 750w Mono's or bigger!!

Rooze
I have the 20.1s and would recommend a high-powered solidstate amp with clean power. I don't believe you can have too much power with these speakers. Incidentally, I have tremendous dynamics and it's not true that the speakers have to be played loudly--as long as you have a powerful amp.