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Tube Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - Rogue Zeus/VTL-MB450

Hey Audiogoners,

First post to A-gon and I need your advice! I've researched this site extensively, read thousands of your threads, and purchased good product through you folks. So here goes.....

Bought a used pair of Maggie 3.6Rs -absolutely love them! [Chose over ML Odyssey, Ascent i (also liked), Maggie 1.6] They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub. I'm upgrading my stack from ss to tubes. Caught the addiction! Having listened to tubes while auditioning e-stats/planars, I've concluded that they just make the sound more "real life" -at least for my taste (go to alot of live shows). I just love that sound!

Also picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube pre-amp along with the 3.6s. Had no prior knowledge of VTL. The 2.5 presents a beautiful large deep soundstage (3D), brings everything to life, sounds tubey -not overly tubey. I've heard some pre-amps I like better (Viva Linea), but at a much higher price point.

So, I want to upgrade two things -Amp and CD

Amp:

Having had such good experience with VTL, I'm tempted to pick up a used pair of VTL-MB450s (at half list), never having heard them. Also considering Rogue Zeus (used)-listened through modest set of electronics/speakers. The Zeus is so powerful that it actually carried the entire system. Bass is tremendous -best I've heard in a tube amp so far. Could have been a tad more articulate in the mid/highs, and didn't present a deep soundstage, but I'm tending to attribute these limitations to the electronics/speakers that accompanied the setup. My sense is that the Zeus could power my 3.6s very well, and drive them to their potential. Zeus is also very well made. Liked the warm standby switchable mode as well as built-in tube biasing. Knocks -it's So friggin' heavy (even more of a monster in real life), & pumps out a ton of heat. Definitely an Uber-amp.

Is there anyone out there in Audiogondom who has listened to both the Rogue Zeus AND the VTL-MB450, and can give me a real life comparison???.....

Other products I've auditioned ...to give a sense of my listening tastes (please DO NOT BE OFFENDED as I'm not trying to knock a brand of gear you may own; it's all good):

ASL Hurricanes - listened opposite Zeus, w/better electronics/speakers. Found them to be more articulate (tubey) in the mids (real nice), lean highs, definitely light bass (compared to Zeus).

Jolida 3000 monos - sounded decent w/3.6s. Tad syrupy. Definitely not the bass slam/quickness of Zeus. Good sound none the less.

Sim Audio Moon W-5 (I know it's ss, but comes highly recommended with the 3.6s) - listened while auditioning Metronome tube CD (w/Moon stack, Triangles). The whole setup disappointed me. The sound was flat, not dimensional. Maybe it was the setup. I'm still stumped.

Can't find Wolcotts in my area. Haven't auditioned VAC.

So, VTL-450 or Rogue Zeus? And why?

Second question, CD.

Tubes?

I really like the Shanling 200 sound, but have heard consistently horrible stories (from 3 of 4 dealers) about reliability. Heard they've addressed firmware issues, but still leary about dropping bucks on a unit with double digit failure rate.

Others...
Metronome CDv2 demo - just sounded flat an uninspiring (maybe it was the system).
Jolida 100 modified - sounded good; lively, crisp, warm but not too tubey.
AMC DB6 modified (with an AMC DAC9 modified) - decent, but not as articulate or sweet as Shanling, not as crisp as Jolida, and didn't seem all that well built. I do like the DAC9 by itself though.
Eastern Electric Mini Max -good for the money, well built, but simply can't compare to Shanling sound.
Audio Research top loader -didn't enjoy w/Krell stack
Musical Fidelity 308 -beautiful crisp highs; maybe should audition w/tube stack.
Wadia 861, McCormick ($3K) -just didn't enjoy them

So, I'm stuck. I like the Shanling sound, but not its Word Of Mouth reliability.

Any other suggestions? Next on my audition list is the Cary 308t. Remember, I'm looking for that warm, lively, beautifully finished sound -but not too analytical.

Sim Audio Moon Eclipe? Rega Jupiter? Other?

Thank you folks.
angelsmtn
aroc
760 posts
 
At modest price points the higher powered amps sacrifice at a lot of purity compared to lower powered amps (tubes or soldistate) in my experience. I have no experience with the more expensive designs. Maybe purity is no longer a problem at those price points. With some amps it seems that you "sell your soul to the devil" as you get better frequency extremes, but the midrange may suffer. I love my maggies, but the tradeoffs in design and amplifier parings are causing me handfulls of hair. :-(
rooze's avatar
rooze
638 posts
 
Aroc, I can't add anything new to this thread, only to reinforce what has already been said, particularly Tireguy's comments relating to high powered amps and specifically their capacity to deliver current.
I learned the hard way with my 3.6's, being stubborn as a mule I ignored peoples advice here, and splurged on a pair of Cary V12i Monoblocks, thinking that 200 tube watts would be plenty. Well the midrange sounded great, but the sound just wouldn't open up - stage depth and width were constricted and the sound was a little lifeless and bland.
I even tried vertical biamping with a pair of Perreaux amps, providing more watts than the Cary's, but still not enough!!
I even had a SS Mac 252 on home demo that puts out 250w into 4 and 8 ohms, I gave myself a hernia carrying it into the living room and the blasted thing shut down on thermal overload after 5 minutes of playing at moderate levels.
I'm now using a Krell FPB200, and although it technically is still only rated at 400w into 4 ohms, it does a much better job of opening the speaker up than anything previous. Based on my experience with the 200w Cary, I would guess that even a 450w amp like the VTL Mono's might be marginal. Remember also that as soon as the amp starts clipping you are going to start blowing fuses in the speakers.....I blew a dozen tweeter fuses using the Cary's and Perreaux's, even at modest volumes and even though the amps didn't sound strained in any way. I haven't lost a fuse yet with the Krell, (touch wood) and I play at even louder volumes.
Sell your soul to the devil, do what ever it takes, but get a pair of VTL 750w Mono's or bigger!!

Rooze
gladstone
296 posts
 
I have the 20.1s and would recommend a high-powered solidstate amp with clean power. I don't believe you can have too much power with these speakers. Incidentally, I have tremendous dynamics and it's not true that the speakers have to be played loudly--as long as you have a powerful amp.
angelsmtn OP
12 posts
 
Hey folks, being the one who started this discussion, perhaps I should chime in for a moment. First, thanks for the threads so far, and keep them coming.

From what's been stated above, and as well as from private comments I've received through email, the nod would go the the VTL 450 over the Rogue Zues. It is suggested that the VTL will be more articulate, provide that tube presence and air I'm looking for, and it's well made. The Zeus, although well made, presents a thicker sound and is less articulate in the mids/highs.

What I didn't expect to hear is you folks tell me that I'd need more power than a 450! On the one hand, I'm sure you're right. Every retailer and A-goner I've spoken with says more power will not hurt a 3.6. But perhaps I should level set you so that you understand where I coming from. First, I've never had the chance to listen to the 3.6s with huge power. I've listened to the 3.6s biamplified with Joilda 3000 monoblocks (200/w 8Ohms?) and they sounded good. Lots of air, lots of realism, but not alot of slam (errr). The Viva pre-amp probably didn't hurt things any. I listened to Maggie 20s with the same stack -definitely not as good. [1.6s on the same stack also didn't sound as good.] Although they had more musical presence (than the 3.6), the 20s definitely need more power. I've listened to the 3.6s on a Musical Fidelity stack (can't remember if it was the 308 or 3.2) and it sounded good -just not my taste; the power and articulation were there, highs were beautiful, but it didn't present the same soundstage or air between the instruments (...which I may rightly or wrongly attribute to tubes...as the sound I'm really looking for). The guy who sold me the 3.6s had them biamped with Jolida 801 integrated amps (80w) (I know, it sounds strange); the system sounded muddy, and I've never heard Maggies sound muddy before. I knew that my old existing ss amp would sound better.... and it did. I have a 15 year old B&K 442 dual mono (350w@4ohms?), and just picked up a used VTL 2.5 pre. So, you see, from where I am, I'm thinking something on order of a VTL 450 is a huge step up in performance.

On tubes vs solid state, I still think I'm giving the nod to tubes at the moment. I just love that soft polished sound. And I haven't found that sound yet in a ss amp. The Sim Audio W5 disappointed me. Classe has been mentioned. Every time I add something tubey into my system (pre, DAC), it sounds better (at least, for my taste).

Comments? Suggestions?

Onto the CD question for a moment.....

Do any of you have experience with this Lector .05? The A-gon threads seem to speak highly of it. Also, this Audio Aero Mk II -is it really worth all that money? Tireguy suggested I check out the Resolution (415 area code is near me, so I will track this one down). Also, how about the Oricle CD2500? Any experience here? Cary 308t?

What will give me Shanling sound, but with better reliability?
tireguy
1,964 posts
 
I have heard all of the players you mention. The Lector is good for the money, but for similar $$ audio aero prima will offer up 85+% the performance of the audio aero capitole mkII(which I used to own). While the Capitole MKII is hard to beat in a one box configuration(in particular for the money and what it is capable of doing) for a wee bit more the Emm labs puts it to shame and is well worth the price of admission if its with in reach. I prefer the sound of the Shanling over the cary and oracle. I have not heard about much for problems with the shanling, however for similar $ I would look more into the prima or lector. If you can squeeze a little more out of your budget Resolution Audio Opus is good, a bit more cash Audio Aero Capitole mkII and even a little more Emm Labs DCC2/CDSD combo. The lector, shanling, and capitole mkII have tube outputs the prima may, however, I am not positive.
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