Jazz for aficionados

Goofyfoot, he speaks for me. lets talk about music. not music theory.

We can't have it both ways.

I think that a thread such as this is a breath of fresh air on this forum (Agon). What could be better than an opportunity to discover and share new music? Personal opinion and commentary are an inevitable part of the process; after all, we are supposed to be sharing favorites and "must haves". But, I think the trick to keeping the discussion relevant is to keep an open mind re others' opinions while at the same time being careful about our own proclamations of the superiority of this artist or that. If we make a claim about artist X being the best, or performance Y being superior to Z, we should be able to back it up with some thoughtful and insightful analysis. If we want to keep the discussion to "this is my favorite" and leave it at that, that's fine; but, personally I find it very limiting. Likewise, comments about the music in general can come across as proclamations of truth without substance (analysis) to back them up.

As Jazzcourier points out historical and biographical perspective (combined with relevant, and ACCESSIBLE musical analysis) is hugely important. The mistake that the listener often makes is an ironic one. The listener develops a passion for a certain music and favorite artists, and music being the incredible force that it is causes the listener to be very protective of favorite artists or personal "new discoveries" without keeping this "view" in a more humble place. There is always a huge amount more to learn about this amazing art form. IMO, the best place to approach the process of learning from is from a place of "judicious self-assurance"; while remembering that there will always be someone who has a deeper understanding than ourselves. That is what the great artists themselves do: quick to dismiss the bull-shitters, but reluctant to put themselves on a pedestal because of the knowledge that if they are not open to getting their butts kicked, they will not reach their full potential.

****The curse and gift of Jazz is that it can be the greatest thing and it can be the most mundane thing,both survive, and can only be limited by the intelligence of the listener**** - Jazzcourier

IMO, one of the best comments that I have read on this forum.

Frogman, much of what you said is consistent with comments that I've made. For the most part concerning a clear explanation of music in order to support a preference for a particular work and/or artist. Another suggestion that I made and I'll rephrase it here, is that pronouncements over how music should be labeled for point of comparison is ambiguous and will typically lead to arguments. I've never suggested that we converse like musical Spoc's as though we are regurgitating data. For some reason, other members are either looking to argue and have a habit of misinterpreting what others say. I base this on the fact that nearly 5 pages of this forum consists of arguments with members targeting one another. Anyway, I would expect that if someone where to have an intelligent conversation about a musician, i.e. Charlie Parker (which is what I assumed from the members here), that they would have a certain knowledge about music itself in order to support and clarify their comments. I don't see why this is too provocative or unreasonable as it seems to have been the standard on other forums. However, there is a great deal of resistance to what I've just suggested and since I don't like to argue, I will reserve my comments.

" I would expect that if someone where to have an intelligent conversation about a musician, i.e. Charlie Parker (which is what I assumed from the members here), that they would have a certain knowledge about music itself in order to support and clarify their comments."

I Disagree. A person can make any comment he wishes about any musician. No special knowledge is required, other than, hopefully, he has listened to that musician's music.

The 1000 lb gorilla in the room is this, musicians are whatever the PUBLIC, says they are. Not what their peers think of them.

I am sure Miles et al. knew guys who deserved to be as great as they were, and I am sure they thought of them on their way to the bank. It's always been that way and it always will.

Someone decides who will be great. Back in the days of classical music it was the local Patron paying the musican's livelhood. In other words, a few decided. Now millions decide. It's a tougher room.

I think Goofyfoot and The Frogman could be in advanced music / improvisation theory, but, have wandered into Jazz Appreciation 101. Here, we just comment and share what we hear and how it moves us. And all are qualified to do that! Of course, all others are welcomed. A person can never have too much knowledge, and The Frogman is our local guru when it comes to the finer points of music.

Fighting and being argumentive? Well, it's better than being boring! Boredom kills threads! And if The Frogman and I can live together in peacefull coexistence, then anyone can!

Cheers

"The curse and gift of Jazz is that it can be the greatest thing and it can be the most mundane thing,both survive, and can only be limited by the intelligence of the listener" - Jazzcourier

This is a true statement. However, if applies to all music genres and art forms.

Cheers