Jazz for aficionados

Orpheus10, good description of Shirley Horne's artistry. She is a beautiful singer; and plays great piano, too. That recording (Here's To Life) featuring the songs and orchestrations of Johnny Mandel is a true gem; beginning to end.

Rok, I am well aware of the context of "Layla". Of course, it was not a blowing session. But, in any context, when a truly exceptional improviser plays, the depth of the playing can "shred to pieces" lesser players. It doesn't have to be flashy, nor with a lot of notes. Nor does the intent have to be to surpass anyone else; the playing simply excels. Your point about Wynton playing for the moment is well taken. But, I would not give him too much credit for that; that is basic musicianship and there are many layers of excellence that go beyond that basic musical demand that separate the greats from the not so great.

****He plays to give enjoyment and pleasure to the listener.
I have him playing and singing (scatting) on a CD by Jon Hendricks. Doing the same on a CD with Willie Nelson!
And of course the Clapton CD. Name another Jazz player that could that****

Are you kidding? That is what jazz players do (not all scat well, of course). They are able to fit into a variety of situations:

Zoot Sims played on Phoebe Snow's debut album. Phil Woods played on Billy Joel's "I Love You Just The Way You Are". Wayne Shorter played on Steely Dan records, the list goes on and on. BTW, you want to hear great scatting from a trumpet player? Check out Clark Terry; amazing!

I am not a Wynton basher in the least. My point (which perhaps I have tried to make a little too gingerly, in order to not offend some;-) ) is that Wynton is a fine player, but sometimes inconsistent; and, at the end of the day, not on the level of many of the greats as far as depth of playing. That is simply why, with so many great classic recordings still missing from my collection, Wynton's are just not near the top of my list. Additionally, I doubt that fifty years from today, jazz students will be transcribing Wynton's solos. As far as he deserving the adulation that he receives from some AS A PLAYER, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Amazing performances by Clark Terry:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3AvImcsbt1U

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ldnGJn3wz2s

Frogman, we have no argument. I never said, or at least never meant to say that Wynton is the BEST anything. I am just reacting to the Wynton bashing that is out there. Not from you, but from many. If he is not the WORST Jazz player, then bash the guys whom he is better than! Just for a change.

Cheers

Clark Terry has been my favorite for years. Even when everyone else was going gaga over Miles. Maybe because I played Flugelhorn in concert band.

Rok,
I feel the same, Wynton isn't my favorite trumpeter or the"best".I do enjoy his music and have much respect for him on several different levels. Like you I long ago tired of the redundant bashing.
Regards,

Charles1dad:

Smart Jazz players and fans support Wynton and his efforts to expose new people to Jazz and increase the fan base of the music. And in order to do that, the music must be accessible. Not a job for the Ornette Coleman's of the world.

It's sort of like Tiger Woods. Although all golfers want to win and try to win, they know that if they can't win it, it's better for them all if Tiger does. The more he wins, the more money for them all.

I have never heard or read of a Jazz player bashing Wynton. I think they know better. Too bad the fans don't.

Thanks for the words of support.

Cheers.

BTW, lest there be any doubt. I do not consider The Frogman a basher. That type of thing would be beneath a person with his musical knowledge and background.

Frogman makes some very good points on Wynton and others. I would like to elaborate on one thing he said, about inconsistency, which I believe was in reference to Wynton in his post, but could be in reference to anyone, really, when we are talking about live performance. I am also aware, Frogman, that what I am about to say is not really the same point you were making, but more about inconsistency in general. None of us professional musicians are perfect in live performance. One thing that the recording age has done is to elevate the standards that people judge a live performance by, which is why many musicians were violently opposed to recordings when they first started, both in the jazz and classical worlds.

Recordings really can be "perfect" now - with the digital editing technology that exists now, it really is not exaggeration to say that recordings are really almost completely false now, often not resembling the actual playing done whatsoever. I have participated in opera recording sessions where all of the takes sounded like dogcrap. Every single one. Yet somehow, the engineer/editor put together a "recording" that sounds basically perfect. This is how it is done now, and the unfortunate thing about this is that it has raised unrealistic expectations for a live performance from people who don't know much about it, which is most people, including most audiophiles. This is one reason why so many audiophiles say they would rather sit at home and listen to their systems instead of going out to hear live music making. This is a very, very sad thing, IMO.

So I would say about many of these artists that we are discussing here - if you have only heard their recordings, you have not REALLY heard them. If we are talking about a living, presently working artist, you really need to hear them live to truly get a sense of what they can really do. And I want to make it clear that I am not just putting a negative spin on this - you will hear nuances in their live performances that the recordings just do not pick up, and you will slowly gain a greater appreciation for what it is they are actually doing, in the moment, making their music - the sort of things that have been under discussion in this thread, which I agree has been one of the best ever on this site. Yeah, you'll hear some flaws that are not on your recordings - but you will also hear (and feel) some magic that your recordings can never ever pick up, and which you are missing if you do not hear them live.