Tonearm recommendation


Hello all,
Recently procured a Feickert Blackbird w/ the Jelco 12 inch tonearm.
The table is really good, and its a keeper. The Jelco is also very good, but not as good as my Fidelity Research FR66s. So the Jelco will eventually hit Ebay, and the question remains do I keep the FR66s or sell that and buy something modern in the 5-6 K range. My only point of reference is my old JMW-10 on my Aries MK1, so I don't know how the FR66s would compare to a modern arm. So I'd like to rely on the collective knowledge and experience of this group for a recommendation.

Keep the FR66s, or go modern in the 5-6K range, say a Moerch DP8 or maybe an SME.

Any and all thoughts and opinions are of course much appreciated.

Cheers,      Crazy Bill
wrm0325
fleib: Unipivots works during playing in continuous desequilibrium, its bearing damping is not to really damp the whole tonearm but, mainly, trying to put at minimum that unstability during playing and that’s all.

What is your " sientist " relationship between that high inertia and high tonearm bearing friction in that tonearm design?

I own the 505 and I bougth it because I like it that design and looks " diferent " but the reality is that cartridge after cartridge, with diferents headshells and using Stevenson, L/B set up geometries I never achieved in no one of those top cartridges what those cartridges shows me in other tonearms and not only because is not a well damped tonearm, high bearing friction too but that high very high mass that looks the cartridge when it’s ridding the LP surface. I like the tonearm but not its overall performance, it does not really helps to the cartridge task.

It does not matters your " scientist " opinion unipivots are unstable during playback and till today no one can change it yet.

What did it some tonearm manufacturers to " hide " in some ways that critical stability problem?: choose better tonearm build materials as VPI and Duran gone with is blend material choice to damp in better way everykind of distortions but unstability is there does not disappears.

One point dissipate better that 2-3 way street: your opinion, not mine.

I remember carefully when appeared for the very first time the tip-toes by ( I think ) Mod Squad that works exactly as the unipivot bearing. All the high end community jump of hapiness and maybe there were no single audiophile that did not use it.
The tip-toes were designed to dissipate vibrations and convert it on other kind of energy and for the electronics or TT been stables with the 3 point configuration instead 4 footers.

I bought several sets of those tip toes and learned through many years that in reality are not in favor to " eliminate " those generated distortions but in some way amplify it or changed in other that still does harm the quality reproduction and because the feedback of those " vibrations " that pass trhough those tip toes never disappear the problem, are very uneffective but thank’s to tip toes todays we have all those and diferent kind of footers/dampers to use it in almost all our system links.

You can test in easy way what I’m saying ( and you don’t have to be a scientistific that certainly you are not. ). Take 3 tip toes and put under your CD player or TT or preamp or even your amps and see what happen against the damping " tools " you are using today and what you experienced is exactly what happen with unipivots on that regards. Additional the unipivots has that unstability " problem ".

Fleib " I’m inocent till the prosecutor can prove I’m guilty ". It’s not me who must prove anything. I made and make my posts and if you disagree with then you have to prove " I’m guilty " and certainly till now you showed and proved nothing at all.

Btw, do you know why you can’t do it and never will?.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
You certainly are full of surprises aren't you Raul.

Raulireugas
That's why no single tangential arm I heard it can gives us the right bass range with the definition, precision, tightness and transparency that a well damped non-unipivot pivoted tonearm shows us.


Well I was the one you quoted on this thread that was comparing vinyl to the 15 IPS tape master dub. The part I left out during that specific Dv505/fr64s/tape comparo; is that it was Room B. Not even my main room. The Studer tape deck is on a stand with wheels.

It makes me wonder Raul, why you posted this on our ET 2 Tonearm Owners thread ?

raulireugas
Dear ct0517: Yes, I remember the first time that I saw that very good picture and was my wife who took my attention about.

Obviously that beautiful house is a house where the owner likes music and know what this means in a home audio system ( I'm talking not of RR but the real owner. ).

IMHO, the ET tonearm is today an icon/sign in the audio history.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners/post?postid=1294382#12...

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Now something else you said that I agree with.

raulireugas
In theory tangential tonearms must be the best alternative but as always in audio when that theory goes to reality during playing that theory can't be confirmed because unfortunatelly the analog experience is way imperfect and theory comes and has foundation on perfect world.

I can agree with this to a point. And having been doing this vinyl stuff for about 40 years, since I was 13, I will say this again.
This is all about setup - vinyl. A lesser design set up well, can indeed out perform a better design that is setup just so so.  
But the better design will always have more potential. I enjoy my vinyl music only my ET 2.5 Air Bearing Linear tracker. A custom build from Bruce. details on my virtual system. 
 
Now based on my personal experiences and some friends over the years. Here is what I found.
The audiophile with one table, tonearm, cartridge at a time, will achieve greater potential with that one setup; than some one running multiple tables and 6- 8 tonearms. It comes down to time, learning and experience. Like in real life, you can have someone that knows something about many things; or you can have a person that knows a lot about one thing. Now when I see a setup that has a couple 2-3 tables, and 5-6-7-8 tonearms without a properly set up air bearing Linear tracker, I say to myself first. That person is very biased. And then I say what a shame. All that effort and not one tonearm that can track an LP properly all the way through. No grin No smile. Just being audiophile serious, and I consider myself a music lover.

fwiw
re: The ET tonearm - original 2.0, and the newer 2.5 (meant for MC cartridges). The owner requires time to learn how everything that was designed on it works. Most audiophiles that contact me; I tell them to stick to their pivots because I know they don't have patience. Even though all professional reviews of the older base ET 2.0 I have read were rave reviews. None of the reviewers demonstrated knowledge past basic setup. Best rating of 6 out of 10. No reviewer ever discussed how to achieve highest vertical inertia with it for example. This is how one gets the best bass - master tape quality. This has been discussed in detail on the ET2 thread if you're really interested in learning. All I need to do is ask a ET2 previous owner how they managed the weights on the I Beam, and I know if they knew what they were doing based on their knowledge.  

So it is a unique tonearm that requires out of the box thinking, and time with it to acquire the knowledge. Like I said most audiophile friends I know lack patience, and old habits are difficult to break. This is why I never recommended the ET2 to Crazy Bill on this thread. Maybe you really need to be a little crazy to own it.  

Wish I was Mexico right now. Our so far mild winter went to record breaking cold. Fun hobby. A hobby for some of us anyway. 
Hello ct0517,
It's clear from your response, and I'm guessing, of course, that the Ct in your name stands for CT in the good old USA, as I am also from CT and experiencing EXACTLY what you describe in the weather pattern.

was -13 this AM when I got up, with a wind chill of -34F. A tad colder than we're  used to here.

It's even to cold to fish ( and that's cold ).

I'm going to look into the ET arms. At this point, anything goes. Thanks for the tip.

BTW CT0517, I'm trying to be as patient as possible, though it DOES NOT come naturally.

Cheers,                  Crazy Bill

Raul,

**Unipivots works during playing in continuous desequilibrium, its bearing damping is not to really damp the whole tonearm but, mainly, trying to put at minimum that unstability during playing and that’s all.**

A unipivot maintains stability by the distribution of mass and the center of gravity in relation to the pivot. It's like a platter on the bearing. A well designed table will have the mass of the platter distributed so it does not have a tendency to wobble.  If the center of gravity is too low or high, it will be unstable.

Some unipivots use no fluid. How would they work if they relied on fluid?  A unipivot feels unstable with manual cueing because there's no weight on the stylus. The system isn't loaded. As soon as you let it go, the cart straightens.  If the bearing was in a constant state of disequilibrium (good one), you would not be able to listen to it. A fluid damped unipivot is damped, any way you cut it. There might be suggestions for the amount and viscosity of the fluid.

Neither the DP8 or 507 II are unipivots.  They both use high mass (inertia) in the horizontal plane to optimize tracking and bass response. The difference between bearing friction and high inertia is in the type of resistance to movement. Effective mass and inertia are the same.

The 507 is designed to have high inertia (mass) laterally. You call it friction, but it's part of the design.  Less than 50mg lateral sensitivity and less than 40mg vertically - also part of the design. The little vertical arm is so light, that pivot is damped to keep it from flying away.  With all the damping going on, I would think you would be enthusiastic.

You're innocent until proven guilty?  You keep saying the same thing over and over as if that makes you right.  As soon as the thread gets interesting you start up again.  You're the only one trying to prove something.  Lighten up, life's too short.

Regards,




While I love how digital keeps improving, assuming it is perfect Is a non-starter for me.  I guess, when digital sound, near its beginning, reminded me of AM radio, but was called, "perfect sound forever", it has left me skeptical.