Jazz for aficionados

****I can't see why everyone is so "ga ga" over Miles, when Blakey's Jazz Messengers had the best music and musicians by far.****

O-10, that's the kind of statement that, especially on the heels of you posting that great documentary about KOB, will certainly raise some eyebrows.  Any one jazz fan may like the music of The Jazz Messengers more than that of Miles, but to declare that they had "the best music and musicians by far"?  Really?!  

We could dissect that statement and look at the musicians: "better" than Coltrane, Cannonball, Bill Evans, Philly Joe, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock, George Coleman, Dave Liebman, Chick Corea, and on and on..... and, "by far"?  I think that assertion merits some sort of explanation.

The music:

Your documentary and the comments by all those jazz giants do a great job of explaining how just one single recording by Miles both defined and changed the face of jazz more than any other.  As I have suggested before, there just might be something to what all those great jazz musicians have to say on the matter....just maybe 😉 .  There has been so much written and documented about how Miles was one of the great guiding forces in the evolution and history of jazz than just about any other musician that it frankly seems silly to get into it here; a quick search will bring up more info than one can absorb in one siting.  A better way to perhaps answer your question is to consider that if one listen to The Jazz Messengers from their inception all the way to when Wynton was in the band, you'll find very little difference in the music; hard bop.  Great hard bop, but fairly traditional hard bop at that.  Now, listen to Miles' various quintets; all different, and all great.

Dont get me wrong, Blakey was great even if he was not my favorite drummer; I prefer drumming with a lighter touch.  He was also undeniably a great "school" for a lot of great players; and so was Miles, if perhaps and arguably not to the same extent.  However, imo, to compare Blakey playing "Nica's Dream" to Miles' "Nefertiti" is kinda pointless; apples and oranges.  The playing, within the respective styles of the music is on an equally high level; and, on "Nefertiti" more complex harmonically,  making it more interesting to listeners with a certain sensibility.  But, if play the game I must, I'll take "Nefertiti" any day.

Regards.

Btw, I could make a joke about the title of the first Jazz Messengers clip, but it really wouldn't be fair; it's great stuff.

Any Jazz is good Jazz. I rather enjoy Bop, Hard Bop and Modal the best.
Then, there are greats like Pharoah Sanders, Sun Ra...etc., that take an extra exploration on the Jazz theme.

If one believes that jazz (or any art form) should stand still and that change in jazz is something that is "perpetrated" on the music, rather than being the natural and inevitable process that is the product of a truly creative mind, then it becomes very difficult to appreciate something that may not be in our comfort zone
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I love the way that sometimes seemingly unconnected themes in these discussions connect.  Recently the subjects of the role of drummers vs frontline and the relative importance of Miles have come up.  I mentioned "Nefertiti"; Miles' last all-acoustic record.  The tune "Nefertiti" nicely connects a lot of dots.  Here is a tune in which the frontline simply plays the haunting melody; the horns don't solo. The tune is all about the drums; it's almost like a jazz concerto for drums.  And what drums they are!  Tony Williams sounds fantastic and solos throughout the tune as a horn player would traditionally do.  THAT is but one of the reasons that people go gaga over Miles.  He had an incredibly creative mind and tremendous vision for new sounds and ideas.  One may not like all those new sounds and ideas; but, for whatever it may be worth, check out the KOB documentary again and listen to what some of those guys have to say.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLdhGk7gKuZxbOipdilbqLR0ck2GseBAEg&v=Qzib_oUoyrw

Frogman, as you know, I have been prone to exageration ; but not much, especially when we put a short time frame on this, and end it at 1965. There is a very good reason for the time span; after that we began to get into what is, and what is not jazz; example, I saw Miles in Chicago with a buckskin vest that even had fringes on it. The music was a rehearsal for "Bitches Brew"; since there was a fellow from New York with us, and as everyone knows New Yorkers know everything, so I asked him. "What the...."?

"That's Miles new thing, group, music and all", was his response.

That was in the late 60's, after that, jazz changed forever, but it often left me on the sidelines.

"Nerfertiti" does not float my boat, but since there is no one else in my boat but me, that might not be highly relevant in the larger scheme of things. I think we should compare the two discography's between 55 and 65; that will specify the universe of where I'm coming from.

"Bobby Timmons" and "Horace Silver" were better than anybody Miles ever had on piano. Although Bobby Timmons didn't live long enough, his compositions withstood the test of time; "Moanin, Dis here, Dat Dere, and So Tired" have been used over and over by many others. The same could be said for Horace Silver; I don't have enough room for his compositions.

Lee Morgan was better than Miles on trumpet, he just didn't live long enough. Curtis Fuller on trombone was (is) fantastic; thank God he's still around, age 81.

Taking "Nefertiti" over "Nica's Dream" means you lose by a knock out; we'll have to let others decide that, but according to me, it's not even a contest.

As important as KOB was, there is no way it was "that important"; to put KOB up against all the fantastic albums that have been made since that time is absurd; "they" say a lot of absurd things.

"Moanin" by Blakey, has the same status as KOB with hard core jazz fans, and we don't claim to speak for nobody but us.

Frogman, we have fundamental different tastes in jazz; it's a "subjective" difference, there is nothing "objective" about music, because my normal reaction to Classical is "Huh", but since you're a classical musician, and many jazz musicians can go back and forth plus, Nina Simone was a classical pianist before she was a jazz vocalist, I'm sure you will find my stance unique, but that's the nature of "subjective" differences.





Enjoy the music.