Jazz for aficionados

If one believes that jazz (or any art form) should stand still and that change in jazz is something that is "perpetrated" on the music, rather than being the natural and inevitable process that is the product of a truly creative mind, then it becomes very difficult to appreciate something that may not be in our comfort zone
.
I love the way that sometimes seemingly unconnected themes in these discussions connect.  Recently the subjects of the role of drummers vs frontline and the relative importance of Miles have come up.  I mentioned "Nefertiti"; Miles' last all-acoustic record.  The tune "Nefertiti" nicely connects a lot of dots.  Here is a tune in which the frontline simply plays the haunting melody; the horns don't solo. The tune is all about the drums; it's almost like a jazz concerto for drums.  And what drums they are!  Tony Williams sounds fantastic and solos throughout the tune as a horn player would traditionally do.  THAT is but one of the reasons that people go gaga over Miles.  He had an incredibly creative mind and tremendous vision for new sounds and ideas.  One may not like all those new sounds and ideas; but, for whatever it may be worth, check out the KOB documentary again and listen to what some of those guys have to say.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLdhGk7gKuZxbOipdilbqLR0ck2GseBAEg&v=Qzib_oUoyrw

Frogman, as you know, I have been prone to exageration ; but not much, especially when we put a short time frame on this, and end it at 1965. There is a very good reason for the time span; after that we began to get into what is, and what is not jazz; example, I saw Miles in Chicago with a buckskin vest that even had fringes on it. The music was a rehearsal for "Bitches Brew"; since there was a fellow from New York with us, and as everyone knows New Yorkers know everything, so I asked him. "What the...."?

"That's Miles new thing, group, music and all", was his response.

That was in the late 60's, after that, jazz changed forever, but it often left me on the sidelines.

"Nerfertiti" does not float my boat, but since there is no one else in my boat but me, that might not be highly relevant in the larger scheme of things. I think we should compare the two discography's between 55 and 65; that will specify the universe of where I'm coming from.

"Bobby Timmons" and "Horace Silver" were better than anybody Miles ever had on piano. Although Bobby Timmons didn't live long enough, his compositions withstood the test of time; "Moanin, Dis here, Dat Dere, and So Tired" have been used over and over by many others. The same could be said for Horace Silver; I don't have enough room for his compositions.

Lee Morgan was better than Miles on trumpet, he just didn't live long enough. Curtis Fuller on trombone was (is) fantastic; thank God he's still around, age 81.

Taking "Nefertiti" over "Nica's Dream" means you lose by a knock out; we'll have to let others decide that, but according to me, it's not even a contest.

As important as KOB was, there is no way it was "that important"; to put KOB up against all the fantastic albums that have been made since that time is absurd; "they" say a lot of absurd things.

"Moanin" by Blakey, has the same status as KOB with hard core jazz fans, and we don't claim to speak for nobody but us.

Frogman, we have fundamental different tastes in jazz; it's a "subjective" difference, there is nothing "objective" about music, because my normal reaction to Classical is "Huh", but since you're a classical musician, and many jazz musicians can go back and forth plus, Nina Simone was a classical pianist before she was a jazz vocalist, I'm sure you will find my stance unique, but that's the nature of "subjective" differences.





Enjoy the music.

O-10, thanks for your response. I don’t find your stance unique at all. However, I do find it to be rather narrow and, with all due respect, somewhat arrogant; sorry. I really mean no disrespect. I think I will invoke the title of that tune re this recurring debate: "So Tired". What I mean by my comments is simply that I don’t see the value in comparing two players or recordings of universally recognized greatness and very different styles, and trying to establish one as "better than another, by a mile". A pointless exercise, subjectivity and all. Horace Silver "better" than Bill Evans? Really? C"mon! It’s like saying a great orange is better than a great pear. I think the difference between our perspectives is that I feel no need to call one or the other "better". I like them both and appreciate their differences. I also listen to them both. Sometimes I am in the mood to listen to "Nica’s Dream" and sometimes I am in the mood to listen to "Nefertiti". Moreover, when I say arrogant, what I mean is that when brilliant musicians like those in your documentary tout the greatness of a recording such as KOB to refer to those comments as simply another example of the "absurd" things they say is simply,,,,, well, I’ll leave it to others to fill in the blank. From my vantage point, the more productive and positive attitude would be to respect those comments and to recognize that there is always much more to understand. Lastly, and most frustrating to me, is that no explanation or details are offered as to why your "better" players are better than the others. Now THAT would make for interesting discussion. I’m game; speaking of games. Fundamental difference in taste of jazz? I suppose. I don’t think I like "Nica’s Dream" any less than you do. But, I like "Nefertiti" and you don"t. Is it a matter of difference or a matter of scope? Noah was asked to build an arc and to bring two of everything. I think your arc is a little smaller than mine; that's all 😊 Regards.

Frogman, calling this better than that, amplifies the subjectivity of this music. "Better" is a bad choice of words. Although the difference between Bill Evans, and Bobby Timmons is as wide as the Pacific Ocean, "better" is a word that could be left out of the discussion.

Bobby Timmons music projects a philosophical, and sociological point of view, that is probably foreign to Bill Evans, and vice versa. The fact that both of these individuals can strike a piano key, and say more than a short story is incredible; however, just as frequency is all important, whenever music is sent and received by transmitter and receiver; so it is by musician and audience; they both have to be on the same wavelenth.


No one has sent messages that have encompassed the depth and volume of Bobby Timmons music. People who can neither read nor write, understand Bobby Timmons musical messages. Bill Evans music is beautiful and eloquent, and comparing the two is apples and oranges.

Those eloquent discussions in that documentary were an attempt to come to some "objective" conclusion in the "subjective" world of music. They would have had to include the music of "Charles Mingus" in order to bring it closer to the truth. " Fables Of Faubus" is every bit as dynamite, as the tune "Kind Of Blue"


                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48eAYnfgrAo


As a matter of fact, the inclusion of "Mingus Ah Um Charles Mingus" would have made the discussion more objective, and less like a "Miles Davis fan club"





Enjoy the music.


           

O-10, I love both those bands, but if you forced me to choose the best group from that time period…..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaYQ-I0xQmA