Jazz for aficionados

I personally never held Bowie's music up against other trumpeters. He didn't seem that interested in playing like other trumpeters, even the ones he quotes. The musicians he plays with seemed to enjoy playing with him, He was very well respected by most musicians, and a lot of people got something out of what he did do.

The trumpeter Malachi Thompson says in his liner notes to one of his cd's that he was warned by Bowie, Joe Henderson , and Freddie Hubbard not to be a copy cat. He then tells of a time after a solo on Killer Joe, Quincy Jones asked, " Whose the kid? He sounds like Freddie Hubbard.....after taxes!" Everybody laughed, but later the other trumpet players in the band, Cat Anderson, Nat Adderley, and Donald Byrd encouraged him to keep developing his sound.

It was expected to move the music forward, to not sound like others. Is this not still true today?

As far as RAP. It seems to be all rhythm and lacks harmony. I am unable to understand it, but I don't think I'm supposed to.:)

Free Jazz also lacks a certain basic music devise, tension and release. It mostly builds tension and becomes difficult to listen to, until you learn to enjoy constant tension. Most give up.

****I will have to do a lot more listening to Bowie, before I can do anymore talking about him. I think I might like this guy. I dismissed the first clip sent by Acman3. It was not representative and obviously done in jest. ****

Does this mean you did a lot more listening and still don't like him? :-)

****But this is not about Bowie or Marsalis. It's about what they each represent. ****

Correct!

****I am sure he would have given anything to have had Wynton's career, playing the music Wynton plays.****

****I think the wiki page did mention something about 833,000 dollars per, U.S., for the Lincoln Center gig. That's called cutting to the chase. All else is moot.****

Wrong! First of all, as I have said, I don't consider Bowie to be a favorite player by any stretch. But, to your comment: with all due respect you just don't understand they mindset of musicians like Bowie. In fairness, there is no way that you could. I have known and worked with musicians steeped in this and similar genres (avant garde, "downtown", free, etc.), and I assure you that your take on their motivation and their view of their own place within the art world is way off. Most of these guys have an elitist counter-establishment, counter-culture mindset that genuinely eschews the kind of "success" that you refer to. They are incredibly committed to their "message". Like their music, their attitude about some of this is intended to turn traditional values and expectations upside down. I think that your tendency to always go to the issue of "jealousy" of this kind says more about your mindset than theirs, and may be part of the reason that you react to the non-traditional the way that you do.

****Rap does not reflect American cluture, if that even exists. Rap reflects the depravity and spiritual poverty of inner city America. Whenever it is played / heard, it creates an aura of great sadness.****

It most certainly does; although I agree about "depravity and spiritual poverty". Depravity and spiritual poverty that has blinded an entire generation in the inner city to some of the real reasons for the economic poverty. Sadly, these rap "artists" have become their artistic heroes instead of so many real heroes which we have discussed in this thread. What a waste! Additionally, the embrace of the rap/hip hop culture outside of the inner city reflects so much about our culture ("society"; if you prefer). A culture that wants simplistic art that requires little involvement other than feeling the beat. In which attitude has become more important than substance (as Learsfool points out) and which has been trained to be obsessed with the issue of race to the extent that it is terrified of criticizing the gratuitous ugliness of the music for fear of being labeled racist. And btw, that influence extends well beyond our country. I just returned from a three week tour of Asia (NY Phil) and I was astounded at the pervasive influence of the hip hop culture in China, Japan and especially Korea. It is everywhere; the pop music, television and it's commercials and the attire of young people. Rap in Korean is something to experience :-).

Lastly, thanks for pointing out to me that I like noise. Who knew? :-)

I don't think we will be able to reconcile our differences in this matter, people have been arguing over it for 50 years. I like Frogman have 2 minds on free jazz, but if I had spent my life learning music, and practicing to sound RIGHT on my instrument, I might not be very tolerant of people like Bowie.

I ran across the first Lester Bowie video and laughed so hard I wanted to share with someone.
I was not intending to start a rucuss, but all the comments have been educational. Thanks!

Seems as if I misspelled 'culture'. Sorry.

Cheers

No ruckus, Acman3; just healthy debate. Besides, what's wrong with a good healthy ruckus? :-) Otherwise we would be stuck talking about nothing but Bird, Monk and Wynton and those between. Keep it coming!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=27QVenKmDBI&feature=plpp&list=PL64F164D56D514451