Using tube amp with electrostatic speakers.


Moons ago I started similar discussions and thought I had been given enough good advice not to approach the subject again. Here goes anyway. I've used Martin Logan electrostats for well over 30 years with quite a few different amps but have recently switched to a tube amp and dynamic speakers with which I am very satisfied.  It consists of the Cary Rocket 88R amp and Serie Reference 3 speakers. 

My brother was visiting last week and was so impressed with the sound that he decided that he might want to try a tube amp also (probably the same one as mine).  However, he is using a pair of SL3's that I gave him years ago and I'm concerned primarily about the current requirements of the Martin Logans as well as other concerns that I'm not thinking of.  I don't want him spending money on something that may not bring him improved sound so would appreciate more advice to pass on to him.  He currently uses a Rogue Audio SS amp with his SL3 speakers and, to me, it sounds very good. 
jimbreit

A real nice tube amp for ESL’s is the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.2, designed and built by Roger Modjeski, an amp maker who is also an ESL speaker expert. Roger currently makes his own ESL’s, and was involved in the design of the legendary Beveridge ESL’s of the 1980’s.

The RM-200 Mk.2 uses only two KT-88 (or similar) output tubes per channel for 100 watts each, and does so without running the tubes hot or hard. One of the bargains in hi-fi, $4200 new. It imo resides in that perfect price vs, performance sweet spot. Currently in Stereophile’s Class A Tube category.

Don_c55 10-12-2016
Do not buy into this "theoretical nit picking" impedance BS.
The impedance interactions I referred to can easily make a difference of several db or more in the uppermost octave, with electrostatic speakers such as the M-Ls.  That is certainly not nit-picking or BS. Although within the range of possible interactions preferences may of course vary widely depending on the particular listener, system, and room. And yes, many people use M-L speakers with tube amps, without using Zeros, with results that are satisfactory even if not theoretically optimal. But Ralph’s suggestion was legitimate and well worth considering, IMO, and did not warrant the cynical response it received.

Regards,
-- Al


Are you PAYED BY THEM?

Most all tube amps use output transformers with impedance taps that work just fine into 4 or 6 or even 16 ohms!

The Zero is of NO VALUE to most tube amps!
No- I have no financial relationship with Paul Speltz or his company. He just makes a good product that I believe in.

The latter statement is false when the loudspeaker has lower impedances nor is it limited to tube amplifiers (see below). It turns out that on almost any tube amplifier employing an output transformer that when using the 4 ohm tap, bandwidth (particularly in the bass) is reduced and distortion is increased, while total output power goes down slightly. It will be found that the transformer runs warmer too (this is where the loss in output power goes- it is used to heat the output transformer). This is because nearly all output transformers are less efficient into their lowest impedance tap. This is not only measurable but is also audible and that's as real as it gets.


How many people use Zero’s anyway?

And those that do not, do just fine IMO!

There are lots of tube amps that will sound fine on ML speakers without Zero’s.
Turns out that the ZEROs are used in many installations that don't involve OTLs. Some of the Martin Logans have impedances at 20KHz of only 0.5 ohms. That's a problem for most tube amplifiers even though there isn't much energy up there its likely you will hear a rolloff or power will be limited or both. The ZEROs solve the problem easily.

Paul Speltz has a letter from Steve McCormick which states that while Steve's amplifiers can double power form 8 ohms to 4 ohms quite easily, they actually sound better driving 4 ohms through a set of ZEROs. Although power is cut in half (8 ohm power), its a simple fact that all amplifiers including solid state amplifiers like those of Steve McCormick *sound better* into higher impedances because they make less distortion.

Martin Logan has always made ESLs, and ESLs traditionally have their best combination when used with tube amplifiers. This has been the case since ESLs were developed in the 1950s. However what ML recognized was that the transistor amplifier market is much larger than the tube market, so to make their speakers work with solid state better (greateer sales), they set up their matching transformers (similar to an output transformer in a tube amp- all ESLs have them) so that the speaker presents a 4 ohm load or less to the amplifier. This makes them an often very difficult load for a tube amplifier even if it has a 4 ohm tap, since with any ESL the impedance curve varies by about a 10:1 value from 20Hz to 20Khz. So a four ohm ESL will have about a 0.4 to 0.5 ohm impedance at 20KHz (Sound Labs, which have a maximum of about 30 ohms in the bass, tend to be about 3 ohms at 20Kz but can be as low at 1.5 ohms depending on the setting of the Brilliance control).

The thing is, impedances like this are not really all that great for solid state either, especially with less expensive solid state amps that might lack for heatsink area. So a set of ZEROs can put them in much more comfortable (read: cooler running) territory! Plus they will have audibly and measurably less distortion. Now ESLs tend to be very fast and detailed loudspeakers, so if you can reduce distortion the speaker will reveal that very quickly by sounding smoother and more detailed. This is because the human ear/brain system converts distortion into tonality, and the distortion we are reducing by using the ZEROs is going to be the higher ordered harmonics which audiophiles call 'bright' and 'harsh' because of how the ear/brain system reacts to them.

Now I mentioned that ML wanted to make their speakers more drivable with solid state by keeping their impedance low. To give you an idea of what is meant, look at a Quad ESL 57 or 63, or a set of Sound Labs. These ESLs have much higher impedances in the bass region- anywhere from 30 ohms (Sound Lab) to as much as 95 ohms (ESL 57). Solid state amps have troubles making power into those impedances and this is in the bass region where most of the power demands exist. So ML's solution was to reduce the impedance.

To further illustrate, in the case of a Sound Lab, if using solid state usually people use amps that make 400-600 watts into 8 ohms. In the case of 600 watts, what will happen is that into 30 ohms of the Sound Lab ESL in the bass region the amp is going to make slightly more than 150 watts at full power. what this means is a tube amp of only 150 watts can keep up with a 600 watt solid state amp on a set of Sound Labs. Do you see the problem? That is why ML went for much lower impedances and that is why the ZERO is such a handy problem solver when working with them.




@don_c55 Well, yes, but how low and how high is what matters really. Getting significantly below 4 Ohms for instance.

The theory is solid, and if you see Stereophile's FR plots they do one into a simulated speaker load that's pretty good at showing the difference between tube and SS amps.

However! None of this really helps you determine what you may like. Listening is key.

Having said that, I've heard several electrostatic speakers, and when I had a chance to compare, tubes generally lost. I walked into one store with fairly young salespeople. They had a pair of ML's that had been sitting unsold for a while.  All tubes. I suggested they would sound better with SS. They changed it and the pair sold in a week.

@almarg That makes sense. High feedback --> Low output impedance, especially when that feedback is taken from the transformer outputs. :) Not sure what that amp is doing. Would be worth checking out.

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone get religious about it. Sound quality wise though, I would be perfectly happy with tube pre and SS amp. I would not chase a tube amp just for chasing a tube amp.

Best,


Erik