Interconnects, some have directional indicators, why?

kraftsound wrote,

"I’m not saying that inherent directionality does not exist but until someone presents a double blind test along the lines of the test suggested above I’m very sceptical about it’s existence since it does not make any sense at all theoretically. Even if you turn the cable around the strands are still twisted the same way and every other factor also remains the same."

A double blind test is just one data point. so if the results are negative one cannot make generalities regarding directionality, i.e. wires or fuses are not directional. there are many reasons why a double blind test might fail, just like any test: e.g., operator error, system has at least one error preventling full resolution.

"Could it be that the extrusion process would impart an inherit direction? Not very likely since atoms are 100% symmetrical and identical and all impurities in the material are distributed completely at random. The whole concept of inherent directionality in cables just does not make any sense to me as a scientist and if it really does exist it must be possible to scientifically explain the reasons for it.

Can someone please do THAT? Not just present a lot of hocus-pocus statements that have no scientific relevance at all..."

The metal conductors are crystal structures, they are not amorphous. Atoms are arranged in crystal lattices, which are unique for each metal. All metals are crystals. directionality is produced by distortion of the original symmetrical crystal structure that exists after the molten metal is poured. hammering, rolling, drawing, bending - they all distort/deform the crystal structure. Drawing the wire through a die deforms the crystal structure such that the wire is made unsymmetrical and non-homogeneous, like the quills on a porcupine’s back. So, wire is INHERENTLY directional.

You can ignore impurities in the wire since we’re talking about metals that are 99.999999% pure in the case of copper.

Does that make any sense to you as a scientist?

+geoffkait Sure, extrusion does stretch the metal and as I wrote that may indeed be a factor that can explain inherent directionality. I can’t find any other… But you are wrong in the statement that all metals are crystalline. They are NOT! Metals are in in their basic state polycrystalline, that is they consist of many small crystals "grains" with amorphous atoms in between them. There is a significant difference but that is besides the main point of our discussion.

What kind of test would be more accurate than a double blind test? If such a test can’t detect any directionality with some kind of consistency it simply does not exist but is only a figment of illusion. If it does exist then we have encountered a manufacturing problem with regards to the quality of the cable in question!

If extrusion does cause significant irregularities in the metal structure I would humbly like to suggest to any serious manufacturer who detects such effects to simply make up their cables with half of the strands in one direction and the other half in the other in order to eliminate this problem all together as directionality only can be classified as a manufacturing defect. All it takes is respooling half of the bobins containing the individual strands and that is easily done...

Maybe it’s only because I have used well made cables in this respect when testing reversing them that I have not detected any audible differences with regards to their orientation. That may, of course, be the case! No doubt about that...

I’m, as I stated, not saying that inherent directionality in cables does not exist. I’m just trying to resolve the problem that many obviously have experienced when using poorly designed cables. In a well made cable any sort of directionality should NOT be detectable!

And, yes, I am a physicist as well as a professional sound engineer and techie so I’m only concerned with scientifically relevant issues…

And, yes, your comment make sense to me! :-)
I’m just trying to lift the discussion to a scientific level… :-)
I have just not simply yet encountered any such crappy cables...

we’re talking about metals that are 99.999999% pure in the case of copper.

This is a common myth! No copper produced for audiophile or other uses is better than 99.99%. Anyone telling you anything else is lying. The fact is that while copper can be made pretty pure (in which case its state looks more silvery than copper colored) but the simple process of extrusion with an insulation insures that 99.99% is the best you get. If you want proof just look at the color of the wire.

Further, oxygen-free copper was not developed for audiophiles. It was developed for alternators and generators for their brushes, because oxygen-free copper is more flexible. Once oxygen-free copper has been in the field for a few weeks, its purity is about the same as regular copper.

IOW the '6 nines' copper thing is a marketing myth. Anyone tells you they have that turn the other way and run as hard as you can.

kraftsound
8 posts
12-06-2016 10:00am
+geoffkait Sure, extrusion does stretch the metal and as I wrote that may indeed be a factor that can explain inherent directionality. I can’t find any other…

I’m not talking about stretching. I'm talking about deformation of the crystal lattice structures as the wire goes through the die. Don’t put words in my mouth. Besides, stretching alone is a symmetrcial phenonemon and would not explain directionality. 

then kraftsound wrote,

"But you are wrong in the statement that all metals are crystalline. They are NOT!"

Copper, silver and gold are comprised of crystal lattice structures. YOU are wrong!

Metals are in in their basic state polycrystalline, that is they consist of many small crystals "grains" with amorphous atoms in between them. There is a significant difference but that is besides the main point of our discussion.

You playing word games. pure metals and nearly pure metals comprise symmetrical lattice structures, as I already said. They are not amorphous. That is exactly the point of this discussion. Hel-looo!

then kraftsound wrote,

"What kind of test would be more accurate than a double blind test? If such a test can’t detect any directionality with some kind of consistency it simply does not exist but is only a figment of illusion. If it does exist then we have encountered a manufacturing problem with regards to the quality of the cable in question!"

as I already said whatever test you come up with is subject to the vagaries of the system used for the test and the hearing of the subject. i assume you would make a lousy test subject given your attitude. if a test is negative it actally means nothing. It’s only a data point. If many tests are positive you can throw out the negative ones, the outliers.

then kraftsound wrote,

"If extrusion does cause significant irregularities in the metal structure I would humbly like to suggest to any serious manufacturer who detects such effects to simply make up their cables with half of the strands in one direction and the other half in the other in order to eliminate this problem all together as directionality only can be classified as a manufacturing defect. All it takes is respooling half of the bobins containing the individual strands and that is easily done...

Uh, the irregularities cannot be avoided.  How else would you suggest fabricating wire? a mold? Apparently only audiophiles are concerned about this issue. It’s not really a defect since performance of the wire, e.g. resistance, is almost identical in both directions. by the way I'm referring to solid core copper or silver, although the directionality would also be true for stranded as long as all of the strands are in the "same direction."

then kraftsound wrote,

"Maybe it’s only because I have used well made cables in this respect when testing reversing them that I have not detected any audible differences with regards to their orientation. That may, of course, be the case! No doubt about that..."

maybe your hearing is not what you think it is. or they may be a mistake on your system. Who knows? A great many audiophiles have heard directionality. you would be in the minority.

then kraftsound wrote,

"I’m, as I stated, not saying that inherent directionality in cables does not exist. I’m just trying to resolve the problem that many obviously have experienced when using poorly designed cables. In a well made cable any sort of directionality should NOT be detectable!"

Sorry to report all wires and all cables are directional.

"And, yes, I am a physicist as well as a professional sound engineer and techie so I’m only concerned with scientifically relevant issues…

And, yes, your comment make sense to me! :-)
I’m just trying to lift the discussion to a scientific level… :-)
I have just not simply yet encountered any such crappy cables..."

I don’t know why you keep implyng ths discussion is not at a scientific level. some of what you yourself have stated here is either misstatements or simply untrue.