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Audiophiles are not alone

In the current (May 13th-19th, 2017) edition of the Economist there is a short piece entitled "Violins" that I want to bring to your attention.  It is about new violins and old violins, specifically Cremonese (Guarneri, Stradivari, Amati) vs. Joseph Curtin (modern violin maker in Michigan).  With Dr. Claudia Fritz of the University of Paris, presiding, experiments were held in Paris and New York that proved to the majority of both musicians and listeners (other musicians, critics, composers etc.) that new fiddles out performed old ones.  There were some sort of goggles used so that the players could not tell what instrument they were playing.  The audience was also prevented from seeing the instruments somehow.  All this done without inhibiting sound transmission.  Both solo and orchestrated works were performed.  You can read the whole story in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.  And this is only the latest evidence of this apparent reality, as according to the article, similar experiments have reached similar conclusions prior to this.  The article concluded with the observation that these results notwithstanding, world class players are not about to give up their preference for their Cremonese fiddles.

This reminds me very much of some of our dilemmas and debates such as the ever popular: analog vs. digital, tube vs. transistor, and subjective listening vs. measured performance parameters.  If it has taken a couple of hundred years and counting for the debate on fiddles to remain unresolved, what hope have we to ever reach resolutions to some of our most cherished and strongly held preferences?  This is asked while hugging my turntables and tube electronics.
billstevenson
schubert
7,386 posts
 
I was in a small hall in a small town in Wisconsin listening to a fine touring trio "Trio Copenhagen" playing the Ravel.
I was no more than 20 feet away from the violinist , one of the Korean wonders , and her sound overwhelmed me and I do mean overwhelmed me, as in I was shaking . And I’ve been to a lot of concerts .
Had a little meet and greet after and I asked her what kind of violin do you have? She was obviously tired from the tour and she said just one word , Guarneri .
I believe the Creator blew his breath upon that instrument .

lewm
13,337 posts
 
To respond to Raul's challenge way up this thread, after my post stating that the article in the Economist is based on subjective judgement, not "scientific" proof. Raul, I didn't "expect" anything; I was merely pointing out the fact that the article recounts a group experience that produced opinions, not hard data.  I don't at all deny the possibility that the best new violins may sound "better", to a room full of expert listeners, than a Strad.  Also, many expert players and listeners remark about how different one violin can sound from another, even two violins made by Stradivarius.

Isn't it possible that after centuries have gone by the Strads and the Guarneris are growing more different from one another, because of differential effects of aging and environmental effects?  Whereas brand new violins, the best ones, may sound much more alike if from the same maker, because their characteristics have had less time to diverge. Thus it would not so much matter if one compares any Strad to a top quality new instrument, but it matters more to compare a known "great" Strad (or Guarneri) to a top quality new instrument.  By the way, I have never heard any other violin sound like any violin played by Heifetz.
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rauliruegas
13,109 posts
 
Dear @frogman : """  tests and in the reporting of the methadology and results there are other issues that are often not reported.... """

other that the players that were in all those tests no one can say what you posted. You are only assuming that with out any single prove other that your words that for me in this case has a little minor level that the ones coming from the players/soloists.

For your post is clear you are " biased " through what you name " magic ".

Results says other things and NO a kind of tests like this can't be takes months or weeks to do it because is a double-blind test where those players just do not know which violin are playing. Even the tests were with ligth at very low shine effect to impede identification.

I respect your opinion but mine is diferent, You say that " mood " moment in a player does not affects the player performance, well that's what you said where I think that some way or the other it affects. You can't prove your opinion only because you are a violin player. No, I can't prove my opinion neither.

There are other similar tests in that site and I choose this one because in my opinion was the more complete that under the tests scenario conditions exist no " magic " but preference for the new instruments with no-biased soloists/players.

Have you many doubts about?, ask them through the tests leaders. These people seems/look to me are non-biased through the new or old instruments. Why should them be that way? and I'm refering to the National Academy of Sciences USA.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@lewm : hard data?  which one are you looking for?, come  on.
rcprince
3,077 posts
 
Schubert, the Guarneri del Jesu that I did the deal on had previously been owned by a man who sold it to a dealer because it had too big a sound for the string quartet in which he played--he needed an instrument that would blend better with those of his compatriots.  I had a similar experience hearing Sarah Chang play the Bach concerto for two violins with a smaller local orchestra, her violin (also a Guarneri del Jesu) made the concertmaster's (the other soloist) violin sound weak and anemic in comparison, though it too was a fine instrument.
schubert
7,386 posts
 
rcprince, I have heard that more than once.
In my case the other players were not drowned out at all, her husband, a Dane, played a fine Steinway, her sister, the the cello player and another Korean tiger, had a great sound as well. I think I was just closer to the violinist .
It must be something in the water in Korea , we have 3-4 Korean players
in our world-class St. Paul CO and they are beyond good.
Gil the Great played the Mendelssohn here and as soon as it ended he made a bee-line straight to the Korean violist and shook her hand like crazy .

I did have a similar thing happen a few years ago down in Rochester(MN) with local talent playing Brahms .
All the Quartet players were up to it but the cello played has such a fine instrument it made the whole very hard to listen to . Talked to her for a minute after, didn't ask about the instrument. but learned she was a Eastman grad, turned Doc at Mayo .

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