Jazz for aficionados

Hello O.  I could say, "I'm not surprised" by your recent comment about the Chris Potter "Dreamer is the Dream" album...but WON'T  :-) 

There was some discussion about him back on page 206 Aug 26, 2017.  

I still don't "get" him in the sense of...What's the justification?  What's he doing to advance the form?  What's new and fresh here? (even if there's only a subjective answer to that last)  With respect to that CP album, wouldn't someone else have done much this same stuff before him and maybe better?  If not stylistically or technically better, then better simply because they were first?  Rhetorical questions.    

Those same questions do come to mind w/respect to a lot of the classic or traditional jazz that gets posted here.  Maybe the subtle, distinguishing virtues of each is only apparent to ears that have listened to thousands of hours of this sort of music.  For me, at this stage in my "aficionado-ish-ness" instead of a few 1000 jazz albums, I'm thinking, I only "need" (a couple dozen?) that are best of the best or represent significant deflection points in the evolution of the form.  The work and learning is by way of the time invested digging through the overburden looking for a few diamonds...or at least those things that sparkle for me.

This thread has provided great opportunity for exposure to such.  Thank you yet again for starting it, O.  Can honestly say I'm listening to a lot more jazz (even if it ain't always what you would favor) than I have in many, many years.  Owe much of that to the music ideas that have been provided here largely by you, Frogman, alexatpos, and acman.  Thanks to you all.

Most recently (thanks again to Frogman again for the introduction) these diamonds would be preferred over that particular Chris Potter recording...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wZHJXPoFpI      

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r8L-9ay7uE

I mostly agree re Potter.  I want to like his playing because I admire his playing so much for its virtuosity; but, ultimately, he leaves me kinda cold.  I put his playing and style in the probably unfairly broad category of "post-Coltrane" that reached a peak with Michael Brecker, Bob Berg and Bob Mintzer; and, for the more purist-minded, players like Liebman and Grossman.  

You articulated the dilemma very well.  What are they doing to advance the form?  I've always thought of this as a kind of "dirty little secret" in modern jazz.  Putting aside Coltrane's really far out explorations at the end of his life, the influence of his style was so huge in jazz that it created, except for the very best, a whole generation of players that had a stylistic inprint that is a kind of caricature of Trane.  With Potter its more about were Brecker took the Trane thing than anything, but still clearly going back to Trane .  That's one of the reasons I like Joe Henderson's playing; he took a very different road than the Coltrane highway.  For the listener it's a matter of just how deep into the nuances of the evolution of styles one wants to get.  Along the way there are some players who are clear "significant deflection points" (I like that term).  I will say, however, that getting to know the playing of good players who are not necessarily stylistic ground breakers helps to understand and appreciate those who are a great deal.  I used to feel this way about Joe Lovano, but I think his playing has matured a great deal and he is truly advancing the form.  I just posted this, but in case you missed it.  I think this is just great.  Interesting the similarities to Henderson's sound:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVne9WvVP40

As far as your comments re the more traditional jazz I would say that to focus only on the deflection points would be a big mistake.  There were far more individualistic players back then who are really worth exploring and who while not being major deflection points were just so good and so fun to listen to.  This is just one of those players. Amazing ballad playing and feel good vibe.  And what a tone!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKby3ZnxmAI

Thank you Frogman. I’m responding to your last comments first.

"...to focus only on the deflection points would be a big mistake. There were far more individualistic players back then who are really worth exploring...."

That is exactly what is so helpful about this thread: the vets providing the tyro (Scrabble word :-) with exposure to musicians who might not get much type-space in the "Big Book of Jazz" but, none the less, noteworthy. I’m certainly open to considering "a unique style" as justification for inclusion in a personal jazz library.

On the topic of Chris Potter (and I mean NO offense to acman who apparently "gets" him and had mentioned buying everything CP does...) I was going to include lack of emotional content but left it out since I’ve really not listened to much of him.  Still, lack of an emotional connection was definitely an initial response (or lack of one) that hasn’t changed with limited subsequent listening. I tend to assume merit so if acman likes him, I’m guessing there is something good going on there. Maybe technical virtuosity (I do hear and get that aspect of CP) is the main thing he brings. I need more, I guess.

Looking forward to checking out...
Mintzer
Liebman
Grossman
Lovano (did not check him out using your earlier link)

Did a real quick sampling of your Lovano and Griffin links. Yes on Griffn’s tone. On the Lovano, like the tune, love the pianist. Not sure about Lovano. It’s funny though, JG is the one I started exploring.

Apologies if this one below has been done to death previously, but check out the line up. Is that crazy or what?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJq7rmiFJUQ

THANKS

OK folks, a few random thoughts to share.

frog, good catch in turn with "Milestones".  I knew there was something else lurking underneath in that performance but my memory couldn't pull it up.

Chris Thile is an amazing talent.  He is from San Diego County and I first heard him in person here more than 15 years ago when Nickel Creek first established themselves -- yes, I enjoy string band music too.

Regarding Potter, I'd seen his name but never listened to his playing until a couple of posts here.  I tend to agree that he may have proficiency with his horn but I just don't hear the feeling/connectivity in his playing.  But that could well be due to not hearing him other than on my computer and with only a couple of selections here.  Still, for example, and not to start a different controversy, he reminds me of a couple of Japanese jazz musicians who have enjoyed some popularity in the US.  Musicianship very good, soul and emotional expression lacking.

And that goes back to some thoughts o-10 and I exchanged when I first began posting here.  I admit to being "locked into" an era and style for jazz.  Being such an old fart (OK, I'm 75) I must admit I don't have that many years left to enjoy the music I love.  That could be 15 years, 5 years, 5 weeks, who knows?  I'm fortunate to have collected a significant number of albums of favorite musicians and performances.  My focus happens to be on the enjoyment of those.  I'm not saying there is no new music worth discovering and exploring, I'm just relating what I consider to be the best utilization of my listening time.  So no disrespect to anyone who does not care for what I enjoy, or finds pleasure where I don't.  Peace to you all.

Wassup fellas!  Been awhile.  Don't come around A'gon much anymore but it's cool to see you guys are still going strong!  Very quickly re: the comment of Chris Potter being in the Brecker/Berg/Mintzer school of sax players.  It sounded dismissive of 3 players I admire, and that's fine, it's only an opinion.  But within that group I'd say there's Michael B., and than there's the rest!  Here's a player I definitely consider above the rest; the mighty Anat Cohen!

https://youtu.be/zLBvw50QQ7M

https://youtu.be/TsT8sEqDOxI

https://youtu.be/Q2wTkt9qLDk