2. music
  3. 137429-2248

Eric Clapton on J.J. Cale

Since becoming active here on Audiogon, I’ve occasionally attempted within discussions on musicians to explain to those who aren’t yet aware that, though the Rock ’n’ Roll players most often thought of as being "the best" are almost all from the school of musicianship that I refer to as "Look at me. Aren’t I good?" (in an interview later in life, Keith Moon said his goal when he started out was to have his audience think he was the best drummer they had ever seen). I have then said that there is another school of musicianship, the players of which approach the making music from an entirely different perspective, referred to as ensemble playing. Preferred by songwriters and singers, they play in a way so as to make the song and/or singer, not themselves, sound good. They are most commonly heard in recording studios, not on stages.

Now, if your taste in, say, drummers, runs to Neil Peart, Alex Van Halen, Ginger Baker, or good ’ol Keith Moon, I am going to assume that you don’t listen to music primarily for the song, or the singer, or ensemble playing. If I am over-generalizing and over-simplifying, forgive me.

I bring the subject up because I just watched a video on You Tube---an interview with Eric Clapton (by Dan something of Guitar Player magazine) on the making of the tribute album Clapton did to celebrate J.J Cale. I highly recommend watching the video to get an understanding of the kind of musicianship Clapton values in another player---his abilities as an ensemble player (which Clapton first became aware of when he heard The Band). Clapton admits that when he first was told of Cale and heard his playing, he wasn’t that impressed, thinking that Cale didn’t seem to be doing much. As he got older, and matured as a musician, he came to appreciate the subtlety and taste in J.J.’s playing, singing, and song writing.

J.J. Cale is from Tulsa, Oklahoma, as are some of my favorite drummers, who have a feel unique to the area. Many of the musicians on the album are from Tulsa, including drumming great Jimmy Karstein (T Bone Burnett, Dylan, Cale). Never heard of Karstein? A much, much better musician than Pearl, Van Halen, Baker, or Moon---honest!

Speaking of Tulsa, the reason Tom Petty ended up on Shelter Records is that when he and the rest of Mudcrunch drove from Florida to L.A. to get a record deal, they stopped in the town to hook up with The Dwight Twilley Band, whose first album (on Shelter) Petty was extremely impressed by. Leon Russell had an office in Tulsa, and Twilley took Petty in to introduce him. Petty was told to go to the studio Shelter had in L.A. when he got there, and it was in that studio where the first few TP albums were recorded, right on Sunset Blvd., not far from The Whiskey and The Roxy. By the way, the first DTB album---Sincerely---is astounding, one of the three or so best debut albums (along with Music From Big Pink and the first Moby Grape) of all time, imo. Far, far superior to anything Petty ever did. You may not agree.

While you're on You Tube, watch the video of Clapton inducting The Band into The Rock 'n' Roll Hall Of Fame. After hearing Music From Big Pink, Eric told Jack and Ginger he was done with Cream, and went to Woodstock to hang with The Band, intending to ask them if he could join. He never got up the nerve, and finally realized they neither needed for desired his services ;-). He went home, joined forces with Steve Winwood in Blind Faith, who went on the road with Delaney & Bonnie, whose band members (all from the Tulsa area) became Derek & The Dominoes. Their drummer was the incredible Jim Gordon, perhaps the greatest of all the Tulsa drummers.

bdp24
bdp24's avatar
bdp24 OP
10,281 posts
 

@onhwy61, I understand what you’re saying. But it’s not simply a matter of taste, it’s playing what is required to achieve a desired effect. A couple of examples: A lot of people know the song "Shakin’ All Over" from The Who’s version on the Live At Leeds album. I heard that version when it came out, but unfortunately for The Who (;-) had already heard the 1965 version by-----ready for it?-----The Guess Who! Their version absolutely smokes The Who’s version, hard as that may be to believe. That Guess Who line-up was the original, pre-Burton Cummings one, and they create the most intense level of tension-and-release I’ve ever heard, from any band. The Who’s version is all release, without the requisite tension first created, tension which makes the release so, ahem, satisfying. And then there are Daltry’s vocals, which are just so hoary. To the point of corniness. Really embarrassing.

Another example is the playing of Booker T & The MG’s on "Green Onions". The deep, deep groove they create on that song is just incredibly cool. It’s done by doing just as shadorne stated above---using timing---when to play each note, "creating space", just as painters do with "negative space". It’s not just what they paint, it’s what they don’t. The MG’s guitarist Steve Cropper wasn’t merely tasteful, he knew how to create an intense level of anticipation, of kinetic energy, the likes of which Pete Townsend couldn’t approach. The tone Cropper got out of a Tele was also superb, a sound still sought after by guitarists. Almost as good as that of James Burton, creator of the solo in "Young World" by Ricky Nelson, obviously the model (in both construction and guitar tone) for George Harrison's solo in "Nowhere Man". The only other ensemble that played at that level (apart from The Band, of course ;-) were The Swampers, the house band at Fame Studios in Muscle Shoals. Drummer Roger Hawkins (whom Jim Keltner has stated he wished he played more like!), bassist David Hood, guitarist Jimmy Johnson, pianist Barry Beckett, and organist Spooner Oldham are absolutely revered by all the best musicians in the world.

Steve Gadd is just a ridiculously good drummer, and has played with Clapton for years. In addition to J.J. Cale, another guitarist not too well known to most is Danny Gatton, also R.I.P. Danny is known for not just virtuosity, but musicality. Vince Gill nicknamed him "The Humbler". The best guitarist you’ve never heard. There is a double-CD best-of available on WB Records. My favorite story to tell fans of purely virtuoso drumming:

Danny Gatton, to his new drummer after the first set of their first live gig together: "You know all that fancy stuff you play?"

The drummer: "Yeah"

Danny: "Don’t"

Danny was a guitar virtuoso, but didn’t want his rhythm section playing virtuoso-style. I came to realize THAT’S what was wrong with Cream. So did Clapton, after hearing The Hawks/Band. In another video on You Tube, Clapton says he knows that people rave about his guitar playing on the Wheels Of Fire album, but that he thinks it’s dreadful. He grew to hate that kind of playing, and to love J.J.’s kind of playing. Each to his own! My guy is Ry Cooder, whose playing on John Hiatt’s "Lipstick Sunset" is as good as it gets.

whart's avatar
whart
3,215 posts
 
@bdp24 - you are speaking from deep knowledge of the art of drumming. I think, for the era, given what Cream were doing, GB was actually ahead of a lot of "rock" drummers- he hung with the jazz players, dug the African polyrhythms and together and in spite of themselves, Cream made some serious music. Sadly the studio stuff doesn’t reflect what they were apparently capable of --I never saw them live in the day-- their peak was probably that Grande Ballroom show in Oct, 1967.
I figured you’d pick on poor, dead John Bonham, a powerhouse, who wasn’t really about finesse or technique.
I’m largely untutored in drumming--- I know that somebody like Brian Blade brings a lot more to the table in rock as a jazz drummer than most guys who were simply power house showmen. I actually mentioned Roy Haynes to somebody today--heard him at Carnegie Hall a decade ago with Sonny Rollins. So much for aging out.....Guy still had it.
Clapton lost the thread for me when he went country. I find him a tad boring. (Those early tracks live from the Flamingo during the Beano era were a cool exercise in riding an electrified fence- he sizzled).
There are still plenty of technically great musicians, young and old. As you said, it’s ’taste’ that makes the difference. That’s why I can listen to Leslie West during his prime and not be bothered by his lack of technique. As to drums, I dunno. You know a lot more about that subject than me. I’m still trying to figure out Gene Krupa.
bdp24's avatar
bdp24 OP
10,281 posts
 

whart, I realize different people want different things from their musicians, even from music itself. That’s fine with me, I am just making the case for my taste. I have come to realize people generally judge musicianship more as an athletic event than an artistic one.

I was raving to my sister’s husband (at the time blind, now dead ;-) about the two little drum breaks (especially the second) Don Lamond plays in Bobby Darin’s "Beyond The Sea", my favorite drum "solo". I played the song for him, and afterwards he dissected the drum breaks in terms of the difficulty in performing them---how hard the part was to play. I was once again reminded that I listen for something completely different than do some others. I don’t judge a part in terms of how easy or hard it is to play, but by how good it SOUNDS. Who cares whether it’s easy or hard to play?! The point is, Lamond’s solo is incredibly clever (with a delicious sense of humour, rare in drumming, early Keith Moon excluded), very original, and ultracool. And highly musical, ta boot. Isn’t THAT what’s it’s all about?

whart's avatar
whart
3,215 posts
 
@bdp24 - preach it, brother. Yes.

shadorne's avatar
shadorne
7,491 posts
 
@bdp24

That Bobby Darn track is fun. I agree the drummer has a twinkle in his eye when he played that humourous fill.

Reminds me of the Bernard Purdue Psht psht style punction with two open hits to a half open high hat on the 1 and the &. First he gets you focussed on back beat, then the 1 (open hi hat) and the he plays the off 1 and the & open hat (which again the accent shifts the sense of time). 

https://youtu.be/wgiv2tHAgh8

Jamal Thomas uses the same technique in his tasty drum solo at 6 minutes in on this video of Maceo Parker

https://youtu.be/ABLwmYI09Lw

Stewart Copeland did a lot of tasty things on his hi-hat - some explained here by the awesome Rob Brown

https://youtu.be/KJp13pYjjz8


None of this is difficult technically but oh sooooo taaaasssssttttttyyyyyy!!!
More to discover