Why the fascination with subwoofers?

audiokinesis: "The "no bass" you mentioned happens at the rear wall, not out in the room, or so the theory goes."

Hey Duke,

     Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me now.  When I win the lottery, I'll buy a pair of Magnepan 20.7s and some extra bass panels, build a room and give you a call to try it out.

     I'll be living right on the beach somewhere. 
Thanks,
  Tim

Dear @noble100  : The Sounddoctor is a point of view as can be yours, Audiokinesis or any one else and there is no reason that we can read it and the ones with more knowledge levels in the bass regards will took what is " rigth " and diminish what's wrong.

From some time now, I try to read the more I can on that regards.

When I started I did it alone with out knowing Harman or Geddes papers I just trust is what my nearfield live music experiences told me. Yes I took more time to achieve that " there " mentioned before that's what must be an audiophile target.

I have two true subs in a room with out bass traps and no equalization of any kind and I'm lucky enough to stay " there ". You are closer to that " there " so go for it, makes a difference and you will know when you experienced in your room/system.

Btw, I'm in this thread and in the other bass thread because I'm learning from almost every one.

I think that other than the Harman white papers no one  is owner of the " bass Bible ".
I know that reading " here and there " and following making some additional tests or making very little position changes or the like we can learn and perhaps a new kind of improvement. Well this is the way I think and the way I'm moving in my room/system, overall not only in the bass management.
My main target is to stay nearer to the recording.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Hello rauliruegas,

     I just consider myself a student of good home audio, too. Over the last decade or so, I've mainly been on a quest for good home audio bass response.  
     Through experimentation and research, I've found some methods for achieving good bass response and integration in my room and system, just as it seems you have. 
     I think we're both just sharing what we've learned with others. Nothing wrong with that and I wish you only the best on your quest to stay nearer to the recording.

Enjoy,
Tim 

Hey Noble, Real Bad Idea. I love Maggie 20.7s but adding two more bass panels is just going to give you a lot more of no bass.(below 40 Hz)
Dipoles make crappy subwoofers. There is this myth out there that you can not mate a dynamic sub with a dipole bas panel. That is because most are trying to do it the wrong way based on more mythology. I have been using dipoles exclusively since 1976. I would never live with out a sub woofer. There is no other way to reproduce that visceral you are there experience.

@noble100

     Nice thread everyone. Sorry my work is crazy so I don’t check the site as often as I would like. Just had my daughter graduate college yesterday and she did it in three years with a foreign exchange in Japan. Pretty excited about that and the fact she has an second interview with a Fortune 500 company Tues in New York, fingers crossed!!

Here are responses to your questions below Tim and a few notes about setting up my system with Magnepan 20.1 mains. 

hifidream,  

I forgot to ask a few questions about your custom dba system in my previous post. I hope you don't mind, I'm just curious about a few things:

1. What brand and model were the initial subs:
 - Kinergetics SW-800 subs (next to my 20.1’s - five 10” Seas subwoofers in their own non-ported enclosures) driven by a Pass X-250. I researched a ton and wish there were some threads like this when I was planning my system. I looked for five years before finding the Kinergetics online used. I bought them and owned them for another four years before I could play them. 

2. What brand and model were the last 2 subs you added to your system?
- SVS SB-16 Ultra subs (2 enclosed mosfet powered subs). Funny story, I turned them on low without optimizing them and played the music from the Gladiator and the water on my table rippled, house creaked, I jumped out of my couch because my gut wrenched, and my wife leapt out of the shower telling me to unplug the system as thunder just shook the house! Ergo too much base :)

3. Do you operate your 20.1s full-range or limit their bass output?
- I operate them full range. I don’t want to loose all that beautiful sound. 

4. What upper cutoff frequency are your subs set at?
Simple answer around 80Hz at the highest. Each of my 8 channels has 12 biquad active filters created by Multi Sub Optimizer (MSO) inputted into my Mini DSP working at 24/96, details below. 
- In order to maximize the accuracy by eliminating room nodes, and best integrate with the 20.1s I measured the speakers individually with Room EQ Wizard (REW) and the room from my listening position with my Earthworks microphone. I used all the data and followed the instruction manual in MSO plugging in my data and adding more filters as I started to understand how it works and listening to the results. MSO suggests running the subs full range and I was surprised how high they actually ended up crossing over to counter room nodes outside of the subwoofer region. 

So I’ve listened to my 20.1s without subs and while big and dynamic they didn’t give me what I heard when I played in an orchestra. Added the Kinergetics and the sound was close but standing waves were messing with the room (it was a small place). We moved into a nice big apartment  and I got the SVS hooked up and did my room correction and all I can say is OMG. It’s the closest thing to my live playing experience I’ve ever heard. 

Yes there is sound in those very low octaves, organ notes, tympani, and the low rumble of the orchestra in full swing. You can feel it in your body. . . (I could hear most of the music in my 20.1s but not feel it). No one listening to my system can articulate there is one subwoofer much less 4 of them or 6 if you count the Maggie’s. They integrate perfectly and seamlessly. It’s not about loudness but accuracy and I agree with many who have spoken to poor base integration ruining their set up. The one comment I get when people come hear my set up is how “clear” it is. This is the sign that everything has been set up correctly. It’s not an easy thing but the reward is awesome. 

I do bump up the subs 5db for movies and the last time I had my dad and daughter’s boyfriend over for an action movie they jumped out of their seats on an explosion and move their heads out of the way when there are gun shots (they didn’t even know they were doing it because they were so into the movie.) . . . The anamorphic 11x5ft 4K image helps too. It’s a lot of fun.

Thanks,
Steve