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Imaging and the first violin(s)

If there’s one gremlin in my listening for decades, it has been a certain instability in the image in certain circumstances. I listen to a lot of chamber music, and I’ve noticed that the first violin’s place in the image can get less defined, particularly when the instrument is playing fortissimo. I’ve also noticed it in orchestral music, and sometimes in different ranges of piano recordings - moving from left to right.

I wonder if it is my setup - I’m along the long wall of the room, and while there is lots of space on either side of the speakers, it is not exactly symmetrical. However, I just moved last year, and the shorter and harder side switched from right to left, yet I get the same thing. Three different sets of speakers have exhibited this, and I’ve noticed it auditioning music in dealer showrooms as well (btw, don’t all those speakers standing around play havoc with near term reflections??). I haven’t done enough controlled experimentation, but I do think toe-in ameliorates it a little, but not all together.

I wonder sometimes whether the violins are able to, essentially, cut into the right-aimed microphone at certain levels. Or, I suppose, it could be a frequency-based imbalance in my own right and left ear hearing.

Anybody else notice this sort of thing?
ahofer
bgoeller
73 posts
 
Yes I have, especially with piano in either an orchestral arrangement or jazz trio, where location seems to fade between a hard lock and floating. I've non-chalantly attributed this to either an outcome of the final mixdown (maybe the engineer is trying to even out dynamics?), or same deficiency in my gear/room/ear interface.

I will say that I notice this distinctly less with DSD files from Native DSD. Could be coincidence.

Do you have any particular tracks where this effect is pronounced? I'd like to give them a try and see if we hesr the same thing.
erik_squires
16,922 posts
 
Room acoustic treatments???


Usually I find that bad imaging is from poor room treatment and speaker placement.

Speakers:
Experiment with width and toe-in. If you point your speakers directly at your head, try pointing them straight, or having them cross in front of you. Latter is best for being near side walls.


Room acoustics:
The plane (x, y or z) in which you are suffering is the place to improve room acoustics. Height issues, add below and above (ruugs, ceiling). Width? Left and right. Depth? Front and back.  It may help to put a diffusor between the speakers, and try as experiments carpets or rugs / blankets behind and between your speakers, especially if that's where your rack is.
lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,418 posts
 
I agree on the importance of room treatments. My listening is comprised of about 90% classical (all types). I’ve never experienced the first violin or any individual instrument moving in the soundstage. Less defined, yes, depending on the mix.

Room treatments will define and shape the soundstage. I agree with Erik on all points.
In addition to position and toe-in, I’ll include rake angle of the speakers to help focus the image and position the soundstage.
In my room, using two absorbion panels on the front wall centered behind the speakers will lock-in the position of the instruments.


gs5556
1,255 posts
 
Can we assume you established a frame of reference by attending live performances of chamber music?
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