Upgrading sub to get a live feel.


I currently have a set of JBL 4319 which has its history as 4310. They are studio monitors and as a result they sound like studio monitors you hear everything, but they lack the physical presence on the low end. They have wonderful mid range and voice presence. I also have a pair of SVS SB1000 to help with the low end. 

I want to eventually upgrade to JBL 4367 with upgraded pair of subs, for this reason, but in the mean time would a sub upgrade be considered before the speakers. 


thewatcher101
Hello the watcher101,

     Man, you've received a lot of conflicting advice on how to best improve bass response performance in your system and room.  I believe they're all sincere and well-meaning in the advice they've given.
    However, they all seem to have a complete lack of knowledge and experience of the most effective method of achieving excellent bass performance, in any room and with any pair of main speakers as well as without any room treatments and room correction, that I'm currently aware of: the 3 to 4 sub distributed bass array (DBA) system. 
     I recall having a very similar need for good bass advice as you have about 30 years ago but mine concerned how to get better system bass performance with Magnepan main speakers.  
     Well, it took me a lot of research and experimenting with subs, but about 29 years later I finally stumbled upon the ideal solution of the DBA. I'd like to save you some time and frustrations by relating  what I learned over the last three decades of searching for detailed, smooth, powerful, dynamic, seemingly effortless and seamlessly blended with the main speakers bass in my system and room.
     Through experience, I've discovered that one sub is able to provide good bass performance at a single designated listening seat if located properly utilizing the 'crawl' method but you may find it difficult, depending on the main speakers utilized, to configure it so that the bass seamlessly blends with the sound performance of your main speakers' reproducing the mid-bass or midrange on up to the treble. The bass may sound as if it's lagging behind and/or disconnected from your main speakers, especially on fast, smooth and detailed speakers such as electrostatic and planar-magnetic panels. I know the JBL 4319 and 4367 are very good bookshelf speakers but I'm not certain if they're fast, smooth and detailed enough to cause integrating seamlessly with a single sub an issue.
    I understand most individuals would prefer to buy a single top-notch sub and be done with it but, unfortunately, the truth is that attaining good in-room bass response is not that simple no matter the price or quality of the single sub. The reason this is true really has more to do with the quantity of subs in a given room and how they're positioned, than the quality of the subs utilized. Better quality of subs never degrades from good bass performance, it's just not as important as most would assume. I'll try to explain why.
      Two properly positioned and configured subs in a given room typically provides bass response at a designated listening seat that's approximately twice the quality level of utilizing a single sub. Two subs provide increased bass output capacity and impact as well as increased bass dynamics due to the sharing of total bass requirements between two subs operating well within their limits and stress free with ample power reserves for sudden bass output dynamic demands.
    Psychoacoustic principles also begin to be applied beginning with the use of two subs in any given room that results in the bass being perceived as smoother, more detailed and better integrated with the main speakers.  
    To understand how this psychoacoustic process works, it's important to understand how bass soundwaves behave in a room with a single sub. Soundwaves increase in length as the frequency decreases and deep bass tone soundwaves are very long. A full cycle soundwave of a 20 Hz deep bass tone is 56' long, a 30 Hz is 36', a 40 Hz is 28' and a 50 Hz is 23'. For reference, a full cycle soundwave of a 20,000 Hz high treble tone is a fraction of an inch long. This mainly explains why humans are easily able to determine the originating source location (localization) of the shorter soundwave and higher frequency tones above 100 Hz and are unable to do so on the longer soundwave and lower frequency tones below about 100 Hz.
    It's also important to know three facts:
1. Our brains can't even process the presence of a deep bass tone until the full cycle soundwave exists in the room and our ears have inputted this information into the brain.
2. Our brains require the input of at least three full cycle bass tone soundwaves before we're able to recognize a change in bass volume and pitch.
3. Our brains cannot localize deep bass tones (detect where the sounds are coming from) with frequencies below 100 Hz.
    With the deep bass soundwaves being longer than any room dimension in many individuals' rooms, this means the soundwave will leave the single sub and need to travel as far as it can in the room and then reflect off the first room boundary (floor, ceiling or wall) it meets then keep traveling in the reflected direction until it meets the next room boundary. This process continues until the soundwave runs out of energy and with each subsequent bass tone launched into the room by the single sub.
    These numerous bass soundwaves of various frequencies launched into the room by the single sub, and reflecting off room boundaries, inevitably run into each other at various angles causing what are called a Bass Room Mode at each specific room location at which they meet or collide. Depending on the specific angle at which the soundwaves meet, we perceive these bass room modes at specific spots in the room as either a bass overemphasis (bass peak), a bass attenuation (bass dip) or even a bass cancelation (bass null). The result is an overall perception of the bass from a single sub as uneven, not detailed, somewhat disconnected and not natural.
    However, when a second sub is properly deployed and positioned in the room, the very interesting and useful principles of psychoacoustics (how our brains process sound and our perceptions of it) begin to come into play, which results in a perception that the bass is smoother, more detailed, better integrated with the main speakers and more natural or realistic.
      Unexpectedly, this is accomplished through the second sub actually significantly increasing the number of bass room modes (bass peaks, dips and nulls) in the room. Our brains naturally and fortunately process the presence of multiple bass soundwaves below 100 Hz, by adding them together by frequency and averaging them out. This results in fewer bass modes being perceived in the room and a perception overall that the bass is smoother, more detailed, better blended with the main speakers and more natural.  
    Acoustical experts, such as Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Floyd Toole and others, have proven scientifically that in-room bass performance perception improves as more subs are added to virtually any given room, beginning with two subs and with improvements continuing up to the theoretical limits. Of course, there's a practical limit to the acceptable number of subs in a domestic room.
    I'm fairly certain the exact number of subs considered acceptable in a domestic room is higher for most men than most women but, interestingly, the scientists found significant bass performance perception gains were attained with each additional sub up to four but smaller more marginal gains were attained with each additional sub beyond four.

    Three properly positioned and configured subs in a given room typically provides bass response at a designated listening seat that's approaching the optimum quality level attainable at a single listening position. Three subs provide even further increased bass output capacity and impact as well as further increased bass dynamics due to the sharing of total bass requirements between three subs operating well within their limits and stress free with very large power reserves for sudden bass output dynamic demands.
     Psychoacoustic principles are more strongly applied with the use of three subs, as opposed to two subs, in any given room that results in the bass being perceived as even smoother, more detailed and better integrated with the main speakers.  
    My opinion is that the SVS SB-1000 (a small sealed sub with bass extension down to 24 Hz) and the PB-1000 (a slightly larger ported sub with bass extension down to 19 Hz) subs are ideal for utilizing in two and three sub bass systems because they're both very good quality, are relatively small, have all the necessary features/controls and are currently great bargains at about $500/each (slightly more for gloss black or white finishes). 
     The larger and more expensive Seaton, Rhythmik, HSU  and JL Audio subs may be better subs with more features but, remember, the critical factor for in-room bass performance is the quantity of subs used in the room and the quality and features of each is much less important. Besides, the reality is they're all high quality subs and room correction is not required for optimum performance on bass systems utilizing two or more subs.  
      However, if you prefer the best in-room bass performance, the Audio Kinesis 4-sub Swarm distributed bass array (DBA) system is definitely the ultimate bass system that I'm aware of. This is a complete $2,800 kit that includes four 4 ohm unamplified subs that are each 1' x 1' x 28", weigh 44lbs and have a 10" aluminum long-throw driver and a 1,000 watt class AB amplifier/controller that powers all four subs and controls the volume, crossover frequency and phase of all as a group.  
      The use of a 4-sub DBA system will provide near state of the art bass performance not only at a single listening position but throughout the entire room. This is very useful if you have multiple seating positions in your room and prefer having very good audio at each position for both music and HT.
    Of course, only the designated listening position will be optimized for bass, midrange and treble response along with stereo imaging but very good full-range audio will still be provided at each seating position.
    They're also other benefits of the 4-sub Swarm DBA system. Absolutely no bass room treatments are necessary. You'd just need to incorporate room treatments for the midrange and treble response on your main speakers (first reflection points on each side wall and possibly some treatment on the front and rear walls). And these subs look very stylish in the room, kind of like hi-end wooden art gallery pedestals, since the 10" drivers face towards the nearest wall and have connections hidden on the bottom so all that's visible is three wood sides and the top in the wood of your choice. My wife usually has a small vase with fresh flowers sitting on one of the two that are visible in my room. They also make good end tables since they're an ideal height of 28 inches.  
    You also have the option of creating your own custom 3 or 4-sub DBA system, rather than using the complete Swarm system, by utilizing three to four SVS SB-1000 subs, you already have two so you would just need one or two more at $499 each, or any three to four subs you'd like.  I also believe adding one or two PB-1000 subs (that extend down a bit further than the SB-1000's 24 Hz to about 20 Hz) to your system would extend the perceived bass in your room down to about 20 Hz.
     The only down side of using a custom 3-4 sub DBA system is that you need to configure the volume, crossover frequency and phase settings individually for each of any self-amplified subs used rather than once for all four subs as a group on the Swarm system. 
     As I've stated, I use the 4-sub A K Swarm system in a 23'x16'x8' room with Magnepan main speakers and it works like a charm.  But, while I haven't personally tried it to verify, I believe three subs would perform nearly as well, especially at a single designated listening seat.

Hope this helped you a bit,
                Tim
Sure, swarms are nice, but not everyone can afford or has the space for them.


Also, most people have never heard a great single sub integrated well.


The difference in sound quality between a poor sub set up and a great set up is astounding.
The difference in sound quality between a poor sub set up and a great set up is astounding.
+1
Earlier this year I added a REL S/5 to my system. Just a foot of placement and an inch or two of fine tuning was the difference between extreme room nodes and virtually no room nodes. The direction the cone points is critical.  Distance from wall is critical.  So is cutoff and volume.  Now bass is tight and right, quick and integration is perfect, the sub is an inert box. I have full range speakers and irregular room dimensions, so that may have helped.  
I missed seeing how big your room is.  That's going to make a big difference in how you approach things.

I have a single SVS SB-12 NSD in my small computer room and it provides more than enough bass in that small space and integrates really well with my speakers.

In my large living room, which opens out into my kitchen, I have two SVS SB13 Ultra subs and two Rythmik F25 subs spread out as far apart as I can in a "swarm".

I’ve experimented a lot with this system. My speakers have 3 12" drivers and I thought I didn’t need subs. In fact, it seemed like the speakers had "too much" bass.

I tried adding in just one of the F25s in the front of the room near the speakers and that sounded really good, but only at the sweet spot. Just down the sofa where my girlfriend sits there was a big peak and it was really boomy and sounded terrible.

I tried positioning one of the subs behind the sofa and this was much better, but it wasn’t until I put all 4 subs into play in different locations all over the room that I really noticed a big improvement. The soundstage expanded, the boominess is gone, and there’s plenty of presence. I still have some tweaking to do, but I have to agree that using multiple subs in a large room can have a really positive effect.

The subs I used are overkill for this space, I’m sure I could have gotten by with smaller ones, but I already had them in place for my home theater system. Someone suggested that the smaller SVS subs aren’t up to the task, but there’s no need for sub 20hz extension for most music and 4 of even their entry level subs should make a big improvement in a large room if you have the need and the space for them.

While there’s no need, nor would it be practical to have multiple subs in the small room where I have my computer based system, my large living room with no room treatment benefited greatly from using multiple subs.
Hello Erik,

     I understand your points but think they’re only partially valid:

"Sure, swarms are nice, but not everyone can afford or has the space for them."

     Thewatcher101 currently has the $4K/pair JBL 4319s and was looking for a sub or subs that would perform and integrate so well and "live" with them that he wouldn’t need to spend $15K/pair for the JBL 4367s for a significant bass performance upgrade.
     I suggested he could significantly improve the bass performance of his system by any of the following methods:
A. Create a custom 3-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system by either adding one SB-1000 or one PB-1000 sub, both currently on sale for half price at $500. I know this would produce exceptionally good in-room bass response and integration with his current or any future pair of speakers he may own for a total expenditure of $500.
B. Create a 4-sub custom DBA by adding two of the $500 SVS subs. I’ve learned this would produce virtually state of the art in-room bass response and integration with his current, or any future pair of speakers he may own, for a total expenditure of $1,000.

C. Buy the AK Swarm 4-sub DBA kit that not only will produce state of art in-room bass response and integration in any room and with any pair of speakers, but also has the advantages of using relatively small subs and being much easier to configure. The ease of configuration results from the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls only being required to be set once for all four subs as a group rather than individually for each sub. Total expenditure equals $2,800.

     Compared to the OP attaining better bass by upgrading to a pair of the $15K JBL 4367s, this means that thewatcher101 would realize savings between $12,200 and $14,500 by adopting one of my suggested solutions as well as guaranteed better in-room bass response and integration than any pair of speakers by themselves, including the JBL 4319s and 4367s. I thought he would appreciate being aware of this and is also why I don’t believe your point on affordability is valid.
     To quote the owner of Audio Kinesis, Duke Lejeune, "two subs will sound twice as good as one, four subs will sound twice as good as two and eight subs are likely good grounds for divorce".
     However, I believe your point about individuals having the space for up to four subs has more validity but it’s not insurmountable. I also had concerns about accommodating four subs in my 23’x16’x8’ combination living/music/HT room. I decided up front that excellent bass performance and integration were my top priorities and not room decor. So my plan was to just position the subs according to the procedures so the bass was optimized and rearrange the room furnishings afterward as best my wife and I could manage. As it worked out, my total room furnishings rearrangements consisted of moving an 8’ couch along a 23’ side wall about 2’ closer to my front 16’ wall. You can view my system photos on my profile and decide for yourself how well they blend and are inconspicuous in my room.

"Also, most people have never heard a great single sub integrated well."

     I have and definitely have learned that two subs properly positioned and configured will significantly outperform a single sub, no matter the single sub’s size or quality, in bass impact, dynamics, detail, realism and ability to seamlessly integrate with the main speakers.

"The difference in sound quality between a poor sub set up and a great set up is astounding."

     Whadda ya know? I completely agree with you.
     Based on my experience, I would rank the effectiveness of the various general sub set up formats in order of in-room bass performance effectiveness from least to most effective, with the stipulation that any set up format has the potential to be further improved through the use of room correction software/hardware, parametric equalization and higher quality subs, as:
1. A single sub
2. Dual subs
3. A three sub DBA
4. A four sub DBA
5. Live music in a small venue heard in person
     No matter which general sub set up is utilized, of course, proper positioning as well as the proper setting of the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls of each sub is critical for optimizing performance and the integration with the main speakers.
     I’ve read many of your posts over the years here on Audiogon and mainly tend to agree with your statements. I’m somewhat surprised we disagree a bit on the subject of subs.

Thanks,
Tim