Upgrading sub to get a live feel.

The difference in sound quality between a poor sub set up and a great set up is astounding.

+1
Earlier this year I added a REL S/5 to my system. Just a foot of placement and an inch or two of fine tuning was the difference between extreme room nodes and virtually no room nodes. The direction the cone points is critical.  Distance from wall is critical.  So is cutoff and volume.  Now bass is tight and right, quick and integration is perfect, the sub is an inert box. I have full range speakers and irregular room dimensions, so that may have helped.  

I missed seeing how big your room is.  That's going to make a big difference in how you approach things.

I have a single SVS SB-12 NSD in my small computer room and it provides more than enough bass in that small space and integrates really well with my speakers.

In my large living room, which opens out into my kitchen, I have two SVS SB13 Ultra subs and two Rythmik F25 subs spread out as far apart as I can in a "swarm".

I’ve experimented a lot with this system. My speakers have 3 12" drivers and I thought I didn’t need subs. In fact, it seemed like the speakers had "too much" bass.

I tried adding in just one of the F25s in the front of the room near the speakers and that sounded really good, but only at the sweet spot. Just down the sofa where my girlfriend sits there was a big peak and it was really boomy and sounded terrible.

I tried positioning one of the subs behind the sofa and this was much better, but it wasn’t until I put all 4 subs into play in different locations all over the room that I really noticed a big improvement. The soundstage expanded, the boominess is gone, and there’s plenty of presence. I still have some tweaking to do, but I have to agree that using multiple subs in a large room can have a really positive effect.

The subs I used are overkill for this space, I’m sure I could have gotten by with smaller ones, but I already had them in place for my home theater system. Someone suggested that the smaller SVS subs aren’t up to the task, but there’s no need for sub 20hz extension for most music and 4 of even their entry level subs should make a big improvement in a large room if you have the need and the space for them.

While there’s no need, nor would it be practical to have multiple subs in the small room where I have my computer based system, my large living room with no room treatment benefited greatly from using multiple subs.

Hello Erik,

     I understand your points but think they’re only partially valid:

"Sure, swarms are nice, but not everyone can afford or has the space for them."

     Thewatcher101 currently has the $4K/pair JBL 4319s and was looking for a sub or subs that would perform and integrate so well and "live" with them that he wouldn’t need to spend $15K/pair for the JBL 4367s for a significant bass performance upgrade.
     I suggested he could significantly improve the bass performance of his system by any of the following methods:
A. Create a custom 3-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system by either adding one SB-1000 or one PB-1000 sub, both currently on sale for half price at $500. I know this would produce exceptionally good in-room bass response and integration with his current or any future pair of speakers he may own for a total expenditure of $500.
B. Create a 4-sub custom DBA by adding two of the $500 SVS subs. I’ve learned this would produce virtually state of the art in-room bass response and integration with his current, or any future pair of speakers he may own, for a total expenditure of $1,000.

C. Buy the AK Swarm 4-sub DBA kit that not only will produce state of art in-room bass response and integration in any room and with any pair of speakers, but also has the advantages of using relatively small subs and being much easier to configure. The ease of configuration results from the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls only being required to be set once for all four subs as a group rather than individually for each sub. Total expenditure equals $2,800.

     Compared to the OP attaining better bass by upgrading to a pair of the $15K JBL 4367s, this means that thewatcher101 would realize savings between $12,200 and $14,500 by adopting one of my suggested solutions as well as guaranteed better in-room bass response and integration than any pair of speakers by themselves, including the JBL 4319s and 4367s. I thought he would appreciate being aware of this and is also why I don’t believe your point on affordability is valid.
     To quote the owner of Audio Kinesis, Duke Lejeune, "two subs will sound twice as good as one, four subs will sound twice as good as two and eight subs are likely good grounds for divorce".
     However, I believe your point about individuals having the space for up to four subs has more validity but it’s not insurmountable. I also had concerns about accommodating four subs in my 23’x16’x8’ combination living/music/HT room. I decided up front that excellent bass performance and integration were my top priorities and not room decor. So my plan was to just position the subs according to the procedures so the bass was optimized and rearrange the room furnishings afterward as best my wife and I could manage. As it worked out, my total room furnishings rearrangements consisted of moving an 8’ couch along a 23’ side wall about 2’ closer to my front 16’ wall. You can view my system photos on my profile and decide for yourself how well they blend and are inconspicuous in my room.

"Also, most people have never heard a great single sub integrated well."

     I have and definitely have learned that two subs properly positioned and configured will significantly outperform a single sub, no matter the single sub’s size or quality, in bass impact, dynamics, detail, realism and ability to seamlessly integrate with the main speakers.

"The difference in sound quality between a poor sub set up and a great set up is astounding."

     Whadda ya know? I completely agree with you.
     Based on my experience, I would rank the effectiveness of the various general sub set up formats in order of in-room bass performance effectiveness from least to most effective, with the stipulation that any set up format has the potential to be further improved through the use of room correction software/hardware, parametric equalization and higher quality subs, as:
1. A single sub
2. Dual subs
3. A three sub DBA
4. A four sub DBA
5. Live music in a small venue heard in person
     No matter which general sub set up is utilized, of course, proper positioning as well as the proper setting of the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls of each sub is critical for optimizing performance and the integration with the main speakers.
     I’ve read many of your posts over the years here on Audiogon and mainly tend to agree with your statements. I’m somewhat surprised we disagree a bit on the subject of subs.

Thanks,
Tim

  I understand your points but think they’re only partially valid:

"Sure, swarms are nice, but not everyone can afford or has the space for them."

Unless you happen to not be able to afford the money or the space, in which case they are 100% valid.

Hahahhahaha.


Erik

   
Hello Erik,

     The truth is that any audio and music lover, who even briefly experiences the state of the art bass from a DBA, would obviously do whatever it legally or illegally takes to get the money and find the space. 
     The concept works that well and I'm just trying to spread the word.

 Tim