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Grimm findings on streaming audio

I just wanted people here to know that Eelco Gimm, who makes Grimm streamers, spoke to a reviewer where he addressed the reason why most streaming from the likes of iTunes, Tidal and Qobuz sounds different from CD playback.  It's that the music is watermarked before you get it. It accounts for what he deems to be a fluttering around the edges of music. Everyone thought it was compression.

Also, when music is streamed, the first block you get is lossy, followed by blocks of lossless, so if the content is too much for the carrier, the lossy will get through without the listener's knowledge of the switch, unless you're monitoring it on a regular basis.

I understand why some streamers charge for the product, but to go further and mess with the content in the name of licensing, permanently degrading the content, is beyond me. This was from a very short article and more is said to follow.

I also want to add that all of this is over my head but I thought it would be of interest to those who stream and for those who wonder which is the best way to listen.

All the best,
Nonoise
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tomcy6's avatar
tomcy6
2,587 posts
 

Hi nonoise, Watermarking does sound bad, but while I hear a difference between streamed music and cds, I don't hear the fluttering.  Would you post a link to that interview?  I'd like to read it although it's probably over my head too.

Here is an article from Nov. 2017 where Tidal has agreed to implement Album Loudness Normalization proposed by Eelco, which  seems to preserve dynamic range:

https://audioxpress.com/news/tidal-implements-album-loudness-normalization-and-activates-it-by-default-for-mobile-players

"Tidal adopted album normalization at -14 LUFS and followed my recommendation to turn loudness normalization on by default. This is not only convenient for the listener, but it also helps to end the Loudness War since there is no advantage anymore in squashing the life out of a master. Such a track will just be attenuated more in the Music Streamer’s app and make less impact than a dynamically mastered track. I am very excited about this development. The majority of music consumers world wide now listens to loudness normalized music. I hope that the few remaining streaming companies that do not offer loudness normalization by default will follow soon.”

 
nonoise's avatar
nonoise OP
10,833 posts
 
Hello @tomcy6 ,
https://6moons.com/lettersandfeedback/ This is not so much an article but a preview of a review of one of Gimm's streamers by Marja & Henk over at 6moons.

I assume more will follow with the actual review once the reviewers go deeper into it with Mr. Grimm. Marja & Henk are quite steeped in the technical side of audio as their reviews show.

If you were to email them, I think they'd be willing to correspond without giving up too much of their review in progress.

All the best,
Nonoise

geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
The CD flutters too and I can hear that very easily. Flutter is bad. 
steakster
1,876 posts
 
Here’s a link to a watermark listening test.
The toggle button is helpful for A/B’ing.

http://mattmontag.com/audio-listening-test/

BTW, my streaming via Tidal sounds as good, if not better, than my CD transport/DAC combo. And it’s a pretty good combo. It took a while to figure it out.
nonoise's avatar
nonoise OP
10,833 posts
 
Maybe it's my iMac but the test sample wouldn't play B or rewind or toggle properly on some of the test samples. But, it's nice to know that people are working on this.

All the best,
Nonoise
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