long lasting cart

Where are you seeing where a MicroRidge can be used for more than 2000 hours. I’m interested in that kind of longevity! I may be missing something here so pardon my ignorance.

@malatu Yes, you’re definitely missed something, especially the last paragraphs, SAS stylus is MicroRidge, see below:

"This is not to say that at 500 hrs (SAS) stylus is "worn out" - but at that stage the wear has reached the point where distortion at 15kHz surpasses the level specified by Jico for a new stylus. (Which I believe is 3%).

Some manufacturers have traditionally defined a stylus as being "worn out" when it starts to damage the record... in these terms the figures provided by Jico can at least be doubled, and in some cases quadrupled." -SoundSmith

You can be confused with different names given to specific profiles, but what you have to understand is that Conical/Elliptical profiles are the simplest and cheapest with short life span, the advanced profiles are much more complicated if you will look at them, very long life span, it depends who hold the patent (sometimes it’s just different name, but same profile), but the best are MicroRidge, F.Gyger, VdH, MicroLine just to name a few.

Shibata, LineContact are somewhere in the middle, but better than Elliptical, i think in the modern world it must be a starting poing (conical and elliptical must be avoided).

When you buying a cartridge you can read the manual, modern Micro Ridge profile can be used for 2000 hrs at recommended tracking force with clean records, simply check the specs here scroll down and you will see Micro Ridge contact radius and life span ( 3μm×60μm, 2000Hour/2.0gm).

Vintage Stereohedron profile can be used for 1000hrs. I’ll give you the quote from the Stanton/Pickering manual:

● Stereohedron stylus can be used for 1000 hrs. We recommend to check your stylus every 250 hrs. Like its cousin, the Quadrahedral, the STEREOHEDRON stylus is shaped to provide an enlarged area of record groove contact, while providing the ability to accurately trace the high frequency, the level modulations found on today’s records, thus, the Stereohedron stylus provides superior performance which low stylus wear and low record wear for your stereo records. This cartridge will perform superbly not only with stereo, but with four-channel matrix derived systems (SQ, QS, etc).

P.S. Modern equivalent of the Stereohedron is Paratrace from Expert Stylus (UK).

Why bother you can find more improvement in sound from somewhere else.

@chakster,

Where did zyx.com get their data - did they do actual testing?  VDH says his stylus can last 3000-hrs.  But there is a big difference between ZYX and VDH, and that has to do with VTF.  The higher the VTF the more force and the faster the wear.  If you do a simple calculation with the contact stylus area and the VTF, it calculates into 1000's-lbs/in^2 (some calculations yield up to 20-Tons/in^2).

The ZYX tracks at 2.0 gm avg, while the VDH tracks at 1.4 gm avg, that is a 30% difference.  That is a lot, and the wear rate may not be linear, so a 30% reduction in force may result is >>30% reduction in wear rate.

One of my cartridge's is the Soundsmith Carmen MKII.  The stylus is a hyper-elliptical, but its VTF is only 1.4 gm avg.  Now consider a Denon DL-103R which requires 2.5-3.0 gms, it can't have more than 500-hrs, and because of the high VTF, the risk of record damage has to be greater than a cartridge that has a low VTF.  

From a life cycle/performance cost, the Soundsmith Carmen MKII may be the lowest cost cartridge.  Because of the low VTF, you should be able to get 1000-hrs, and right now the MKII is on sale Elusive Disc for $699, and Soundsmith "rebuilds" the cartridge for $199, and consider that the Soundsmith rebuild is not a retip, its a complete rebuild with the suspension replaced.  So a 2,000-hr cost is ~$900, or ~$0.45/hr-use, and at 3000-hrs = $1100 = $0.37/hr-use.   

Compare that to an Ortofon 2M Black with Shibata stylus that is $750 plus ~$550 for new stylus, so the 2000-hr cost is $1300 = $0.65/hr-use, and at 3000 hrs cost is $1850 = $0.62/hr-use.  

Of course, the above analysis is useless if you do not like the sound of the Soundsmith Carmen, but the analysis is presented as a way to access a cartridge life cycle cost.  But, make no mistake, digital can beat analogue life cycle cost easily because the average laser or digital component MTBF is at least 5000-hrs (but sadly the 30,000-hr MTBF of the Phillips benchmark glass optic lasers are history).  However, if you are wealthy, life cycle cost means nothing, but this thread was looking for advice on a long lasting cartridge.

Where did zyx.com get their data - did they do actual testing? VDH says his stylus can last 3000-hrs. But there is a big difference between ZYX and VDH, and that has to do with VTF. The higher the VTF the more force and the faster the wear. If you do a simple calculation with the contact stylus area and the VTF, it calculates into 1000’s-lbs/in^2 (some calculations yield up to 20-Tons/in^2).

ZYX designed by Nakatsuka-San who has as much experience in cartridge design as Van Den Hul. I believe they did actual tests in Japan. Or do you think ZYX is a bunch of amateurs or what ?

My point is that Micro Ridge has the longest life span at recommended tracking force, no matter who is the manufacturer of the cartridge.

The ZYX tracks at 2.0 gm avg, while the VDH tracks at 1.4 gm avg, that is a 30% difference. That is a lot, and the wear rate may not be linear, so a 30% reduction in force may result is >>30% reduction in wear rate.

I don’t care, the point is the long life span of the advanced stylus profile such as Micro Ridge and related profiles. 30% more or 30% less - it does not matter at all, it will be the longest life span anyway compared to conventional Elliptical/Conical profiles.

One of my cartridge’s is the Soundsmith Carmen MKII. The stylus is a hyper-elliptical, but its VTF is only 1.4 gm avg. Now consider a Denon DL-103R which requires 2.5-3.0 gms, it can’t have more than 500-hrs, and because of the high VTF, the risk of record damage has to be greater than a cartridge that has a low VTF.

I hate Denon 103 cartridge and any cartridge with Conical stylus profile such as SPU and related oldschool garbage with rolled-off high frequency sound.

Hyper Elliptical is a nice profile.

Most of the cartridges have VTF from 1 to 2 gramms, except for some oldschool monsters like SPU.

The key point if not the tracking force alone, but stylus profile and contact area to distribute this tracking force over the wider contact area for less records wear and stylus wear. Conical profiles must be avoided for this reason, they wear quicker and damage records.

From a life cycle/performance cost, the Soundsmith Carmen MKII may be the lowest cost cartridge. Because of the low VTF, you should be able to get 1000-hrs, and right now the MKII is on sale Elusive Disc for $699, and Soundsmith "rebuilds" the cartridge for $199, and consider that the Soundsmith rebuild is not a retip, its a complete rebuild with the suspension replaced. So a 2,000-hr cost is ~$900, or ~$0.45/hr-use, and at 3000-hrs = $1100 = $0.37/hr-use.

It is true that his service is top notch for his own cartridges.
It’s a good point because on some MC cartridges suspension fails before the stylus wear off.

Compare that to an Ortofon 2M Black with Shibata stylus that is $750 plus ~$550 for new stylus, so the 2000-hr cost is $1300 = $0.65/hr-use, and at 3000 hrs cost is $1850 = $0.62/hr-use.

There are tons of amazing vintage MM and MI cartridges on the market in NOS condition with sealed original spare styli with the best profiles for lower price (or higher price). The goal of the vintage NOS options is not only better profiles, but also much better cantilevers (beryllium for example).

Here is a Garrott Optim FGS cartridge, so called Dynamic Coil, this model has Fritz Gyger stylus (one of the best ever profile). Garrott was one of the best retipping/refurbishing service back in the days, under new ownership this is still a very nice company in Australia, they can offer a wide range of MM cartridges based on very popular P77 model.

But, make no mistake, digital can beat analogue life cycle cost easily because the average laser or digital component MTBF is at least 5000-hrs (but sadly the 30,000-hr MTBF of the Phillips benchmark glass optic lasers are history).

In my opinion: Digital sucks, boring and not a good alternative to vinyl records, especially to truly analog vintage pressings with old music (60’s/70’s for example), the source for those records was a master tape, digital remastering ruin it and most of the modern reissue are so bad. Original vinyl still available and in 90% it’s better. Digital is for new music, recorded digitally. But even new music can be recorded in analog and released on vinyl, musicians are happy with vinyl releases.

@chakster,

I would not be so dismissive of VTF as a variable for record and diamond wear.  The advanced profile stylus's such as Micro-Ridge increase the surface area of the stylus to better contact/track the groove.  The hardness of an inclusion free diamond is fixed.  So, a consequence is that force over area calculates the pressure and this is a major factor in wear of any material, so the advanced profile stylus's have longer life if not compromised by excessive VTF.

As far as the Garrott Optim FGS, the life cost for 2000 hrs is $1150 for the cartridge and $660 for retip (non user replaceable) = $0.91/hr-use, and the manufacturer is in Europe which for USA means international shipping (for retip) with associated shipping cost/customs.  None of this is any critique of the cartridge performance - just a cost analysis.

As far as digital, your passionate opinion is well known on this forum, but my statement was life cycle cost only.  Some Mobile Fidelity Gold and JVC XRCD CD's on a good CD transport can sound quite good.  But, I am equal opportunity, so I have analog and digital, but my dollar investment is in analog.