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Speaker shootout update; aggressive treble eliminating some (fairly?)

I've been trying out speakers in a complicated shoot out, both bookshelves and towers — all in my home with my gear. I'm looking for speakers obtainable up to about $4k but could go up (or down) a bit if the right thing came along.

Basic facts: All speakers were run in at least 100 hours. Room is 27 x 14 x 6.5 ceilings. Powering with all QS tubes, 60w, NOS, tube R2R dac, and decent cables. No terrible reflection points; room not overly live or dampened. REL R 328 sub available but I did most listening without it.

Recent auditions, type:

Klipsch RP 600-M (budget singleton of the group)
Fritz Rev Carbon 7 mk II (bookshelf, 2 way, soft dome)
Focal 936 (tower, 3 way, inverted metal)
Martin Logan Motion 60s XTi (tower, 3 way, AMT)

Coming soon:

Salk SS 6M (bookshelf, 2 way, beryllium)
Dynaudio Evoke 30's (tower, 3 way, soft dome)

Let me speak just to the problems, rather than what was good about the speakers. So far, I've found the Klipsch, Focal, and especially the Martin Logans were all too bright — forward, aggressive, "turn it down" treble.

The ML's were the most impossible to tame and hardest to listen to on more tracks. (I did a lot of hanging of towels and other dampeners and other soft things to try to see if I could bring them to heel. I varied the recordings used. Changed cables/wires. No luck.)

The Focals were occasionally too bright; their bigger problem was a bit too much energy in my small listening space. They were better when I plugged their ports with socks.

I'm looking forward to how the next two speakers sound. The Dynaudio towers, I notice, are 10 inches shorter and half the weight of the other towers; not sure what that might mean, but it could just be right size for my space. I'm looking forward to seeing if the Salks bring more detail to the treble without also being too rolled off or harsh.

Hearing is very personal for physiological and taste reasons. However, if anyone has any thoughts about why I might be experiencing some of the phenomena I am (harsh treble, especially) based on my room or gear, etc., that might help me understand factors I'm not fully appreciating. Thanks.


128x128hilde45
brownsfan
1,508 posts
 

As usual, there is a divergence of opinions.  I agree with a lot that has already been said, but I'm going to try to tie together the best of it and add one or two other points.


  1. Pure guess on my part, but of the speakers you listed, I’d lean strongly towards the Fritz. I have experience with Scan Speak soft domes.  If they are too bright, look elsewhere for the problem.  They are respectable with regard to resolution and imaging, but not necessarily world class. I also encourage you to seriously evaluate the Fritz near field.  If the room is part of the problem, and I am almost certain it is, near field listening may be the easiest “quick fix” even if it will only be a partial fix.  If I had to move quickly, Id go with the Fritz and start working on the room. 
  2. Your room dimensions are way outside the Bolt area and  you also do not have a favorable Bonello modal distribution.  Your room IS a problem.  I’d avoid full range speakers until you are willing to invest heavily into room treatments. 
  3. 6.5 ft ceilings and 14 ft side walls can be brutal in creating flutter echo.  Play some sustained high frequency test tones and if you have flutter echo you will hear it right away provided you hit the right frequencies.  This can be ear piercing.  My room has 8 ft ceilings and 14 ft side walls and I am still trying to defeat flutter.  You are going to have to deal with side wall reflection in a 14 ft wide room to address flutter and get decent imaging.  If your floor is not carpeted with a deep pile you are probably going to need to treat the ceiling as well.
  4. Download Room Equalization Wizard and learn how to use it and interpret the results.  It takes time, but it will save you a lot of wasted time, effort, money, and frustration in the end.   The individual who said “the room is the speaker” was correct.  In most rooms, at least 80% of what you are going to get out of a system is based on optimal selection of speaker and main listening positions.  



kenjit
1,771 posts
 
The problem is @hilde45 isnt willing to have his speakers retuned but still wants optimum sound quality. You cant have it both ways. 
The fact of the matter is the speaker crossover does make a big difference to how harsh it sounds and nothing else you do will mitigate that. The problem could be something as simple as the tweeter level being set too high. If you dont want to accept the answer to your problem theres no point in seeking help. 
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,341 posts
 
When it comes to difficult rooms, less/smaller speaker is often the ticket to better results (with fewer room treatments).

Once you have a handle on the frequencies where most of the music occurs, ie the midrange, then you might consider adding powered sub or two if needed/desired and have the flexibility of setup that approach offers.

I am a big Dynaudio fan but will be surprised if those resolve the issue. I have heard my older Dynaudio Contours lean towards a tad bright with some amps which is exactly what the reviews indicated.

I have heard Fritz Carrerra not Carbon and still assert you would be hard pressed to do any better than that (with low stands) in that room. The easy load of the Fritz at least helps assure that amp matching is not likely a problem. Not the case with Dynaudio in my experience. Dynaudio are wonderful but only with the right amp up to the task and that is not most tube amps.

I have heard Salk and they have yet to catch my ear but not enough experience to know what to expect with those.

I think the fast path to a solution will be getting things tuned in/optimized around the Fritz along the lines discussed. I would focus on that were it me before adding expense of other speakers, but I know rolling speakers is a lot of fun if you have the time, money and patience and you don’t know what you will get until you hear it. Once things were tuned in with the Fritz, it would then serve as a good reference I think to then perhaps try others, if still of interest.

hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,994 posts
 
@dougsat  Yes, it has been fun to try stuff! What's harder is uncovering one's own misconceptions and sometimes big blind spots. But it's all growth, so I feel fortunate. I have *some* notion that a smaller tower — a slim, shorter one like the Spendor or Dyn 30 — might work, but if not, I think the bookshelf option is a good place to head back to.

@mboldda1 Interesting proposition but I really need speakers I can try and return easily for free. With The Music Room in my backyard, I have an ever-rotating supply of very good things to try. I just drive up there and bring it home. 14 days later, if it doesn't work, I drive back. 30 minutes each way. Free, from start to finish.

@djones Gotcha. No headphones, please. I'll go with correction of some sort but first I need a best first foot forward with a speaker.

@brownsfan  Great points. The only things I'd add about the room is that there is a short entrance hallway along one sidewall which makes first reflection on the right side a non issue. On the left side, the side wall is also so far that first reflection isn't an issue. There is also a hallway in the rear which lets some energy out. In other words, it's not a hermetic box. I don't know what that does to the sound, but I thought I'd mention it.
I will try the flutter echo test, though in my situation, the sound from the speakers is more or less direct given what I've mentioned above. I'll go get the REW software.

@kenjit
The problem is @hilde45 isnt willing to have his speakers retuned but still wants optimum sound quality. You cant have it both ways.
The problem is you're not reading what I said. I am in the process of trying and returning. If you can't read what I've written, then don't respond to it. Otherwise, you're just scribbling graffiti on the forum wall.

@mapman Think you're right about bookshelves. I do have a REL sub. I'm concerned about the Dyns needing power but these towers are 88 db, though they are 4 ohm. That said, anyone who knows the Quicksilver Mono blocks will probably testify to their ability to drive a lot of speakers. At any rate, this will be a free experiment with local pickup and return.

lalitk's avatar
lalitk
5,570 posts
 
@hilde45,

With low ceiling, you may wanna consider low profile stand with your bookshelf speakers, 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa2ggb-custom-oak-speaker-stands-free-usps-priority-shipping-spe...
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