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Speaker shootout update; aggressive treble eliminating some (fairly?)

I've been trying out speakers in a complicated shoot out, both bookshelves and towers — all in my home with my gear. I'm looking for speakers obtainable up to about $4k but could go up (or down) a bit if the right thing came along.

Basic facts: All speakers were run in at least 100 hours. Room is 27 x 14 x 6.5 ceilings. Powering with all QS tubes, 60w, NOS, tube R2R dac, and decent cables. No terrible reflection points; room not overly live or dampened. REL R 328 sub available but I did most listening without it.

Recent auditions, type:

Klipsch RP 600-M (budget singleton of the group)
Fritz Rev Carbon 7 mk II (bookshelf, 2 way, soft dome)
Focal 936 (tower, 3 way, inverted metal)
Martin Logan Motion 60s XTi (tower, 3 way, AMT)

Coming soon:

Salk SS 6M (bookshelf, 2 way, beryllium)
Dynaudio Evoke 30's (tower, 3 way, soft dome)

Let me speak just to the problems, rather than what was good about the speakers. So far, I've found the Klipsch, Focal, and especially the Martin Logans were all too bright — forward, aggressive, "turn it down" treble.

The ML's were the most impossible to tame and hardest to listen to on more tracks. (I did a lot of hanging of towels and other dampeners and other soft things to try to see if I could bring them to heel. I varied the recordings used. Changed cables/wires. No luck.)

The Focals were occasionally too bright; their bigger problem was a bit too much energy in my small listening space. They were better when I plugged their ports with socks.

I'm looking forward to how the next two speakers sound. The Dynaudio towers, I notice, are 10 inches shorter and half the weight of the other towers; not sure what that might mean, but it could just be right size for my space. I'm looking forward to seeing if the Salks bring more detail to the treble without also being too rolled off or harsh.

Hearing is very personal for physiological and taste reasons. However, if anyone has any thoughts about why I might be experiencing some of the phenomena I am (harsh treble, especially) based on my room or gear, etc., that might help me understand factors I'm not fully appreciating. Thanks.


128x128hilde45
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,994 posts
 
@jackd It would be worth trying that. I’m suspicious that 6.5 ft ceilings will be a problem wherever the TOWER speakers are, but if I don’t try, I’ll never know. That said, I am NOT having a problem with any bookshelves I’ve tried in the room, so it may already simply be conclusive that (a) big towers won’t work, (b) bookshelves do work, and (c) small mini-towers might work.

@mapman See above. The tweaks are a good idea but not really applicable to towers. I’ll try that on stand mounts if I notice an issue. Listening with the speakers along the long wall almost creates a nearfield listening situation, by the way. But with towers, at least ones with AMT or Focal's metal tweeters, the ceiling interferes. I suspect it would interfere wherever I put a tower.
I have two sets of stands to work with are: 25" and 20". Thanks for the additional option!

@twoleftears Re: (2) you make a good point. Fritz’s tweeters are about 3 feet from the ceiling and the Martin Logans AMT tweeter is the same. But the energy coming out of those AMTs is probably greater and has a different dispersion pattern; I’m not sure how far the Focals were from the ceiling. Maybe it just comes down to the tweeter difference, given the room. No reason to exclude the VA’s, then — you’re right. There’s a store that carries VA stuff in Denver — Soundings. I might reach out to them if the current crop of possibilities dry up.

@dgarretson
I can’t believe the unending debate on whether equipment breaks in or the ear accustoms itself to equipment.
While that issue surfaced momentarily in this discussion, it’s not really been the focus. Thank god. I have no desire to see it debated here.
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
4,994 posts
 
Alright you bast*rds. ;-)

I’m going to test it out.
jackd
1,072 posts
 
@hilde45 

I don't think changing from the long wall to the short wall will do anything for tower speakers either especially if they are over the height of the average bookshelf and stand needed for proper ear level.  It should however make the room issues easier to tame as the space will be more defined. Whatever bookshelf you end up with be it the Salk, one of the Fritz's or others a lower stand and a lower adjustable chair should help.   A pair of bass traps in the corner, diffuser panels behind each speaker would be a start and then one of the cheaper rectangular panels for the first reflection point. Get the front baffle 36" from the rear wall and the sides two feet and work from there.  Either the Salk's or the Fritz's should love your QS gear as both Jim and Fritz use tube amps at home though Fritz is prone to changing up a lot like I am.  I have tried my Carrera's with six different amps and integrated's with two being tubes and they have shined with all of them.  Though I certainly don't need more speakers I have been really tempted by the pair of LS-7R's listed on Audiocircle at that price.
b_limo's avatar
b_limo
2,277 posts
 
Dude, stuff that bed in that far back cutout, get a nice down comforter and pillows and your guests will thank hou for a properly set up 2 channel stereo, lol.

serioudly, how often do you have guests?  How often do you listen to your stereo?  Besides, you don’t want them gettin too comfy; they may never leave.

I think the issues you were having were tweeter material, not tweeter distance to ceiling.  
Slap your rig on that wall where the bed is currently.  Pull the speakers waay out from the front wallso you get a nice deep soundstage.  Pull them 2 feetfromthe sidewalls.  Put your sweet spot equal distance from the speakers in relation to the distance between the speakers.  Play with toe in. 
I’m surprised no one has mentioned trying to flip the bookshelf speakers upside down too.  Another thing to add, don’t put a coffee table in between you and the speakers.  Start looking at how sound is going to reflect off every wall, floor, ceiling, table etc.  Its best to start with a naked room, treat the walls, set up your stereo and dial it in, then start putting furniture back in one piece at a time.

If you are trying to accomplish the best possible sound with what you have, you have to be willing to make compromises with the other things in the room before making compromises to your stereo set-up.

Anyhow, have fun and report back!
b_limo's avatar
b_limo
2,277 posts
 
Oh, to add to the Fritz info, I’ve also been tempted to buy those Ls7’s for sale right now...  please, someone else buy them so I don’t have to eat Ramen for the rest of the year!

He did switch to the SB Satori BE’s due to availability issues with the Transducer Labs BE, not covid related.  I’ve heard both, I own the newer ones with the SB’s, and they sound nearly identical.  Fritz is the Man and I love his speakers.  He’s great to work with and has a true passion for building awesome speakers.  He’s not in it for the money, fame or girls either, lol, just a genuinely awesome guy.  I can’t say enough good things about him or his speakers.  The more time I spend with the Carreras, the more I love them.

I think Mahgister was just sticking up for MC in saying that you can squeeze more out of any product if you are willing to do so, and I agree.  I think in orser to get to that top level of sound, you need to start doing some crazy things, and its not always about more money.  I think MC knows what he is talking about and is extremely helpful to anyone who asks.  He can come off as conceited sometimes, which is a shame because overall, I think he’s actually a good guy.  
And last, I’m not saying that changing the orientation of your set-up is going to solve the issue you are having with bright speakers but it should just sound better all the way around.  I’m guessing that the majority of people here have their systems setup on the short wall, not the long.  I would even go so far as to say that your low ceilings aren’t causing the brightness problem you are experiencing.  I think that is due to speakers that are bright or that those speakers need more current.  I also think that you, like many others here, don’t love bright speakers.  Bright speakers sell in 5 minute demos, not 5 hour long listening sessions.  
You may prefer really laid back speakers like Harbeth.  Just because they are laid back, does not mean they lack detail.

It’s my guess though that you’re going to love the Salks.  They are on a higher level thananything you’ve had in your room yet.  When will they be there?

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