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the sound of massed violins in classical orchestral recordings

why do massed violins have this sort of gritty sandpapery reverberation in classical orchestral recordings?even in some sections of a piece, when the violins are playing softly in the background, you hear that gritty overtone more than the melody.when I listen to the Houston symphony in Jones Hall,sitting fourth row, facing the violin section, I don't hear that sound.I have three systems { two of them mid-fi ] and I hear the same thing-even with headphones.in all instances, the other parts of the orchestra are clear.  my main system : Vanalistine Trancendence 10 tube preamp,a 35 year old solid state Proton D1200 amp, [have tried NAD,Project, Musical Fidelity amps--they don't sound any better],Onkyo dx7555 CD player [Stereophile class B],and Project Carbon turntable with Grado Black 2 cartridge [ the Ortophon Red was too bright ] through Magnepan MG12/QR speakers.Tried a highly regarded Elac speaker--no change as far as the violins go, but way inferior to those dramatic Maggies.So, there you have it. Is it the equipment? Is the state of the art not up to recording violins? Is it me? [its o.k.-I can take it}. In closing,a couple of years ago,I had phone conversation with a well known person associated with a major speaker company about this. His response :[ paraphrased ] Violins are a problem--don't like 'em.  Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.
6119
kevn's avatar
kevn
168 posts
 
Snilf - “I have a theory, but it's probably b.s. Violinists all play with vibrato, which constantly, and kind of randomly, varies the tone slightly. With a solo performance, this can be captured unproblematically. But with an entire violin section, everyone is employing vibrato in different ways. Thus, the massed tone of a violin section is extremely complex, not just at the physics level, but even audibly: each instrument is actually playing slightly above or slightly below the given pitch at any given time. Now, for some reason, the ear can resolve this in a live performance (or so I have found, anyway). But perhaps, recording and reproducing this micro-chaos is a significant strain on the technology”

Thanks for that snilf - you put it really well ; )
rixthetrick's avatar
rixthetrick
1,060 posts
 
I have a good friend who is an accomplished violinist, she claimed to me more than once, that she'd never heard a playback device that could come close to violin. That could mimic it close enough to fool her into believing it was the real thing.

I have wondered and discussed with a few people, if it were that in the early days of digital they would have suggested a slightly wider range than the "'human auditory range", from say 20Hz to 30Khz, would the harmonics included make a difference? Would it be better with interpolation for example with stringed instruments?

I found the following, it's not verified.

As for the frequency spectrum active as a result of the violin’s sound:

Bowed open G string: ~191 hz to ~16000 hz

Bowed open E string: ~658 hz to ~17000 hz

Plucked open G: ~191 hz to ~8000–12000 hz (depending on how much ‘click’ you want)

Plucked open E: ~191 hz to ~17000 hz
"For example, when recording 44.1 kHz audio, you are capturing frequencies up to the 22 kHz range. When sampling at 48 kHz, you are really capturing frequencies up to 24 kHz."

"While some people claim that they notice a slight improvement in audio quality when selecting the higher audio rate, research indicates that 20 kHz is the limit to human hearing."

Source- https://www.protoolsproduction.com/44-1khz-vs-48khz-audio-which-is-better/
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
6119, the two parts of any system that are likely to create this problem, are the cartridge and the loudspeakers. This is where good MC cartridges with fine line styli shine. I love Maggies but they are not the last word in detail. This is where ESLs shine. They do violins better than any other type of speaker. It is not the recordings in general although there may be a bad one here and there, classical music is usually wonderfully recorded and the pressing are generally better than popular music pressings. 
rvpiano's avatar
rvpiano
2,712 posts
 
Since I resolved the problem, I don’t hear the “grittiness“ of massed violins on any source anymore. I think the problem may be with your amplifier,  or with your DAC, if the source is digital.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Violins have a very wide frequency range which always passes through a cross over to separate midrange and tweeter drivers. My guess is this disrupts the ultra fine detail these instruments have. My daughter is an accomplished violinist. When we bought her violin I was amazed at the different character these instruments have sort of like wine. I must have listened to 20-25 instruments. The one I finally landed on cost $10,000.
The runner up was a more reasonable $5000 made by a young Italian violin maker who was an up and coming star in the world of violins. So I got that one. Anyway, the secret to the best ESLs is that there is no crossover in the violin's path and their transient response is unsurpassed. The reproduction of massed violins is as good as it gets. If violins are your thing then you need to head in that direction.  
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