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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
audiokinesis
2,743 posts
 
Unreceiveddogma wrote:

" Well, if 2 are better than 1, and 4 are better than 2, then are 8 better than 4; are 16 better than 8? 32, 64, 128, 256...? (Is that a straw man argument, or, lacking other evidence, simply taking the argument to its logical conclusion?)"

My guess is that (aside from cost) practicality vs perceived utility is what sets the upper limit on the number of subs. For most people, apparently that number is either 0 or 1. For some, it is more.

Each additional sub offers LESS incremental improvement than the previous one, simply because there is less net increase in the spatial distribution (assuming the previous subs were intelligently distributed). Where the "point of diminishing returns" lies is arguably a judgment call, again with practicality probably being a major factor.

Duke
m-db's avatar
m-db
985 posts
 
I manufacture bass guitar speaker cabinets and sometimes that gives the impression that I'm a bass player. But I'm not.  

" Who's you're hero, inspiration? "  

One need not be a bass player to be inspired by Geddy Lee.


Duke, your Bass cabs look nice, small and solid. Smart.
Dust collection is everything, over build it. Don't mess around.

I get stoke from most Bass players, past and present.
From Guitar / Bass player Kathy Valentine of the Go-Go's to Christian McBride, its all good.
 
In '64 with JBL's DIY plans I cobbled together two 4530 'Scoops' and drove them using a Fender Deluxe with a modified line output to a Marantz 8B for amplification. Lots of plywood on stages in those years.

Over the years I acquired a 360/361, Magnavox SVT trunk w/ Tone Tubby drivers, QSC BAG END w/ELF-M sub, Bergantino, Mesa 400+, etc. scattered around the house.
Small venue FOH gear came and went, I still have an older Tom Danley horn.

Now don't laugh, my current rig is an Acoustic Image Focus driving an old 12" drum shell fitted with a BAG END 10" Coaxial and x/over upshot.
Amp and speaker fit in a back pack, holding my Fiddle leaves me a free arm and just one trip to the car. So I began and ended up using DIY cabs. Life, eh?

I think you'd enjoy the soup-to-nuts tour of Masa Boogie operation in Petaluma California on your way to Napa valley to pick up a few bottles of Sinskie and Plump Jack.
noble100's avatar
noble100
2,419 posts
 
unreceivedogma:
" A friend of mine who was the audio guy for the Untied Nations and the DJ for the Nuyorican Poets Cafe gave me a tip, which I have to try over the weekend:

Put the sub in the spot where your listening chair is. Then walk around the room. When you find the spot where the bass sounds tightest and deepest, that’s the spot to place the sub.

Assuming this theory works, I’m hoping that spot isn’t in front of the door to the room."

Hello unreceivedogma,

     Your friend's tip is a good one that I've used and recommended many times with very good success.  It's commonly referred to as the 'sub crawl' method and you're highly likely to find it to be very effective in your room as well.  
     If the result is actually in front of a door, placement immediately to the left or right side of the door will probably also result in very good bass perception at your listening seat.  This is technically a bit of a bass performance compromise but you can decide for yourself if it's a sufficiently subtle one to be acceptable. 

Tim
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Right. If we are talking about a 2 channel high fidelity system one sub never works well for a multitude of reasons. When you get to two subs crawling around on all fours is an evolutionary step backwards and totally unnecessary. Sub placement has to consider the placement of the satellites. Whether or not you add more subs in addition and where you place them depends on what type of satellites you have, point source or line source, size of drivers, how high you intend on crossing over and how loud you want to go. Subs should always be against a wall or in corners. There is a large increase in efficiency which lowers distortion and the amount of power needed to drive the sub. It also decreases unfavorable room interactions. 

By far the most difficult problem is matching the subs to the satellites. If set up correctly you should not be able to tell there is a sub in the system.
There are three issues that have to be dealt with to get the job done right. The crossover point and slopes, the phase and time relationship between the subs and the satellites and the relative volume of the subs to the satellites. Subwoofers have a bad reputation in many quarters because getting all this right is not easy and I have not seen a single powered subwoofer that comes with the onboard flexibility to do this well. It becomes a trial and error ordeal. Passive subwoofers with outboard amplifiers and digital crossover systems have the power to do this very effectively in less than a human life span. Now I just pissed off everyone with a powered sub  🥺 Not to worry! You can use the amplifier in the subwoofer you just have to add an outboard crossover with the necessary flexibility. You have to get one anyway as very few subs come with a high pass section for the satellites and you will absolutely never get the best performance without one. 

erik_squires
16,146 posts
 
Right. If we are talking about a 2 channel high fidelity system one sub never works well for a multitude of reasons.


I must have a magic sub.
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