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Just spoke to an old client of mine..........Avantgarde owner

This gentleman is unhappy with his Avantgarde Trio XD, because his current room is smaller, and he is hearing the discontinuity, between all of the drivers, from his listening seat. I have been stating this " phenomenon ", for as long as I can remember. It is why many designs, imo, are a poor choice, for the average sized listening room. Not just this, but my ears are very critical with designs, that have a conventional woofer, along with a horn, or panel type, midrange / tweeter. These designs are known as Hybrids. I hear this discontinuity, every time. As a horn guy, as much as I can enjoy some horn hybrids ( a simple and well executed design, such as the Altec 19, and yes, I owned a few pair and made mods to  several ), I find I cannot, long term, hear a convincing presentation. Bass, up to the crossover point, is so different, than the horn. This of course, is a very personal thing. I am a Klipsch guy, and love the KPT series, along with the Jubilee, but I have been involved in arguments with folks, who think I am crazy ( here, and on the Klipsch site ), about using speakers of this design, in a regular and average sized listening room, where the distance to me, is just TOO DAMN CLOSE. This Altec and the Klipsch designs I speak of, are of two different phenomenons.This is me, and I never attacked anyone who enjoys this type of set up, but I have been questioned ( even attacked ), by individuals, who seem clueless, to what my ears hear. Just wanted to put this out there, and will be presenting some discussions and experiences , I have had, and want others feedback. No right or wrong in this, as we all hear differently, want things differently, and so on, which I also stated, many times. Enjoy, be well and stay safe. Always, MrD.
mrdecibel
mrdecibel OP
3,067 posts
 
Jond, it is all about the right speaker, for the right room, and the marriage, between them, and the listener. Prof., nice speakers, both, especially for a short listening distance. My modified Lascalas do great, with near field as well. Toe in, as well as angling upwards, is paramount. But as always, Klipsch, or horns in general, are not for everyone. I do use powered subs, which took a week or so, to to get them dialed in, in this space. Audition Audio. I am with you. I have not yet heard a hybrid system, that totally eliminates this anomaly. Admittedly, as much as I have heard, I have not heard it all. Tomic, hey buddy, I mentioned it early in the post. Yea, I hear it, also, with the Cornwall, but have heard so much worse ( still running them in your garage ? ).cd318, he thought I would be interested in purchasing them ( I helped him with the purchase some years ago ).  Unfortunately, I do not have the proper size room for them. I think I could enjoy ( really enjoy ), immensely, the Volti Vittora, with a pair of his ELFs, and the Marchand electronics. I should contact Greg, and see what he can do for me. Concentric drivers, for sure, are coherent, in this respect. With my conversation with him, and my encouragement, I think my client is now, looking to move again, as he moved for a job relocation ( it is a rental home ). To all, thank you for all of your comments. Always, MrD.
tomic601's avatar
tomic601
13,154 posts
 
No the garage rockers have gone on to a fly rod building / guitar shop in the mountains w an 8 wpc Toolshed amp with the Basis table - sounds freakin fantastic 
audiokinesis
2,754 posts
 
Mr. D, ime the audible discontinuities you describe in hybrid speakers can have several different causes. Among them are:

1. If the angular spacing between the drivers is large, and in particular large relative to the wavelengths (which can happen with Avantgarde Trios at close range).

2. If the immediate acoustic environment around one of the drivers is significantly different, like if one of the drivers is subjected to a lot of very early reflections.

3. If there is a large arrival-time discrepancy, particularly in the midrange or treble regions.

4. If the off-axis response of the various drivers is significantly different, particularly in the crossover region(s), resulting in audibly different direct-to-reverberant sound ratios.

5. If there is a particular signature or coloration which is present in some of the drivers but not in others.

6. If the basic propagation characteristics are different, as when combining a line-source panel with a point-source woofer.

These sorts of issues are not necessarily inherent to hybrid speakers. The Dutch & Dutch 8c would be an example of a hybrid that doesn’t have any of them.

Duke
not at Dutch & Dutch dealer
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,605 posts
 
You can easily have a great speaker that does not sound so great because the room is just not big enough for it.

Certainly very large horns can be a problem in most people’s rooms.

The best speakers are not only good but tend to be larger and designed for larger rooms. Lots of contenders for best sound in most people’s rooms at home where certain limitations may not matter. 
whart's avatar
whart
3,113 posts
 
I found it very tricky to get the Duo, the smaller horn/hybrid, to cohere- crank the woofers to get impactful bass and they sound discontinuous with the midrange horn; back off the woofers and you improve coherence but the speaker is bass shy. I solved the problem through a combination of positioning in a fairly large room, and adding subwoofers that begin rolling off at 55 hz. I also use DSP on the subs which improves their performance in the room. That, and a change in cartridges, has given me the best performance I’ve ever had from the Duo. Part of the problem may be that the woofer system is playing somewhat high in the range (I’d have to look at where they can cross over, but the difference in character between the horn and dynamic drivers can be exaggerated by some settings).
The Trios would be a hoot with the manufacturer's bass bins. Tres cher, though. Horn loaded woofs would be almost mandatory with the Trios even if they weren’t sourced from Avantgarde. It is sad that the price/value ratio is so poor with the producct- the are now very expensive in the U.S.
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