Jazz for aficionados

Keegiam, it will not come as a surprise that I agree with what you wrote and this is not intended to pile on against O-10’s theories on the matter. I’ve done plenty of that already because I simply don’t agree with a premise that, as you suggest, defies logic and to me is inaccurate and incomplete at best. It is a fascinating topic that actually deserves more accuracy since it is actually quite relevant to the subject and history of this thread, Jazz. Ironically, and inaccurately, the universally accepted idea that the influence of African musical tradition is one of the key ingredients of Jazz has been staunchly denied by O-10 and another participant here on many occasions. Ironically, this opposing view is in direct contradiction to the much more accurate premise discussed now that those traditions were transplanted to Brazil where they became part of the cultural mix that created “Brazilian music“. Why anyone would think that the same would not happen in America is a mystery to me. Of course, it did happen.

Personally, I think that a closer look at all this is important because the music and the culture of a people deserve a more complete and honest look and not one romanticized by unverifiable personal notions and incomplete “facts“. A very interesting actual fact is that in many African cultures there is no word for “music” or “dance”. One of the main reasons that the way this topic is being discussed here is incomplete at best is that it is being discussed through a Western lens and a Western theoretical framework. Our notion of what music and dance are is a Western abstraction and in many ways is not applicable to a discussion of African music since “music” in Africa was inextricably linked to every day life and utilitarian in nature in many ways.

The idea that there were 120,000 different African rhythms is....well, to quote O-10, “I don’t want to be offensive”; but, then, I don’t have the musical acumen to be able to identify 120,000 different rhythms ☺️. I am reminded of driving North through Portugal to cross the border into Spain’s North Western tip in order to visit distant relatives in the small town of Verin where my maternal grandfather was born. It was fascinating to experience how at every stop along the way from Lisbon to Verin the Portuguese language literally morphed closer and closer to Spanish until just over the border in Verin it was identifiable as Spanish. With many remnants of Portuguese still, but (obviously) still using the same alphabet and syntax . This is probably very similar to what happened from village to village in Africa. The rhythms (inextricably linked to language) in the various villages in Africa while having different “accents” or even being different dialects shared the same “alphabet” and “syntax”. They survived.

As always, O-10, I appreciate your passion for all this and I hope there can be disagreement without drama.

"Ironically, and inaccurately, the universally accepted idea that the influence of African musical tradition is one of the key ingredients of Jazz has been staunchly denied by O-10 and another participant here"

Frogman’s statement is not universally accepted nor does it jibe with anybody who has ears for music. Clearly, African music can be heard all over the Caribbean and South America, but not in the United States of America; Why is that?

Give me just one example of music that is clearly African in origin, during, or just after slavery? Why does African music exist everywhere that slaves were sold except here?



Music was a way for slaves to express their feelings whether it was sorrow, joy, inspiration or hope. Songs were passed down from generation to generation throughout slavery. These songs were influenced by African and religious traditions and would later form the basis for what is known as “Negro Spirituals”.


That’s what was in "Google". Has anyone been to Africa and heard them sing "Negro Spirituals"? Has anyone heard anything from Africa that sounded like "Negro Spirituals"?



Negro Spirituals are the songs of Africans imported to the US and stripped of everything including their dignity and their culture. They were given the King. James version of the Bible and told to pray. That’s why all of those "Negro Spirituals" refer to stuff out of the Bible. If they were African songs, they would refer to stuff out of Africa.


Since this argument can be audibly refuted, I will give you an example of African music, and let you compare that to "Negro Spirituals" and see if you hear any resemblance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8tXMEe30ZM


I even tried to find something as close to Western music as possible, all the music in my collection is extreme African with absolutely no resemblance to most music here.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_vhBMWWnBE



I even tried to help your case Frogman with the music, but I don’t think I succeeded; nothing about this "Negro Spiritual" sounds African to me.

O-10, it runs much deeper than that and I have previously given you several specific examples of, among other things, the origin of “blue notes” in Jazz, the origin of the idea of “call and response” in music, the origin of “swing feel” as it is defined in Jazz; all with roots in African musical tradition.  Theshe concepts are most certainly universally accepted. Read any authoritative musicological text, tome, book, treatise...whatever, for ample explanation and evidence; not to mention, the opinions of just about every Jazz musician that has been discussed here. Those opinions are well represented as well. Influence as part of the cultural mix, just as in Brazil. Influence, O-10, INFLUENCE.

Anyway, I’m moving on.

This is some of the music in my collection;


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gmGL5SqhaY


"Fatou" as she is known by her fans, is the newest member of my collection;


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E82BifytoYY


She is so full of life that I can feel her vibe.

I don't know where you're from Frogman, but I'm from the city. Modern American jazz is from the cities of this country. From the late fifties on, through the 60's, I was in St. Louis, Chicago, Atlanta, San Antonio, Detroit, and LA. There was one thing all those cities had in common, and that was jazz. No, the jazz was not different from this city to that city, during that time, whatever lounge I was in, the jukeboxes were quite similar; they contained the same tunes we have reviewed on this thread many times.

The only city where the music was a little different was LA; they had the same jazz plus what they called "West Coast Jazz". When musicians from New York, went to LA, they didn't change their style one iota, they played the same jazz they played in New York.

West Coast jazz could be heard in spots that are now famous for West Coast Jazz. LA was so hip, that all you needed was a boss tuner, they had more radio stations that played jazz than anyplace. When it came to musicians and live jazz, LA rivaled New York, but the musicians weren't famous. As good as they were, I wondered why that was so. It seems that good musicians didn't need to leave LA to make a living; they could do movies, or play clubs all up and down the coast. In regard to West Coast jazz or East Coast jazz, they played whatever the patrons of the nightspot they were appearing in demanded. (Good musicians can play more than one style).

When I say modern jazz, I'm speaking of the music that originated with all the musicians who surrounded and worshiped "Charles 'Yard Bird' Parker". That would include "Miles Davis"; Miles wore out a pair of shoes and the sidewalks of New York looking for Bird. Don't take my word for it, read Miles Autobiography.

That jazz is music that expresses uncommon and complex emotions; some can hear it, some can not. Many people who like the music can not hear everything in it, but so what. In regard to the people who are primarily responsible for modern jazz, for Gods sake let us not go back to Africa. Their history begins in the city in which they were born; Bird was born in Kansas City, there is a contradiction in regard to where Miles was born, and where he was raised, that's because he doesn't know anything about where he born (Alton Ill) but he knows a lot about where he was raised, E. St. Louis, Ill.

All of the cities I mentioned were wonderful places to live and have a good time in; I know, I lived in a few, and had a good time in all of them. Oh, I forgot Indianapolis, that was where Wes Montgomery began. Just about all the jazz musicians we reviewed on this thread began in local clubs in their hometown city before they made the big time, but Miles began in New York, so I guess that's where we'll have to make his hometown city.

The beginning for modern jazz musicians is the city in which they were born.