@millercarbon - You never answered my question regarding SR, but I think the answer is rather clear.
Millercarbon's Mega Vibration Control Journey
Vibration control is such a huge, and hugely important, topic it deserves a thread of its own. There was a time I thought it nuts to say such a thing. In fact I wrote a letter to the editor excoriating them for wasting my time on the goofy idea that clamping components between shelves could have any effect on sound at all, let alone be worth spending good money on a rack designed to do just that. This was the Michael Green rack, and thanks to my closed mind and dismissive attitude I never did bother to try and find out for myself if there was anything to it.
Important Lesson Number One: Don't be so quick to dismiss things just because you can't understand how they could work.
Couple years later unpacking a McCormack DNA1 amp the Owner's Manual says the included spike can be used to improve sound quality. Well now. As crazy as it still sounded this time its Steve McCormack, and he's already given me the spike, so what do I have to lose? Much to my surprise it did indeed improve the sound. Not a lot. But definitely more detail, clarity.
This is very early 1990's. There is no internet. I know precisely zero audiophiles. Until stumbling upon this one guy at work who says oh yeah and put your CDP on a phone book, and another one on top. Which sounded even crazier but the guy was serious and this being the 90's we all had phone books laying around so I gave it a shot. This time it was only the most barely perceptible improvement, but it was there. If you really listened for it. So not much. Then again, free. Wrapped some fabric around it, ran the CDP like this for quite some time.
Around this time I'm shopping for components for my new listening room when this guy is more excited about something called Black Diamond Racing Cones than the amp or whatever he was trying to sell me. So I get 3 of these things and they're so much better than the phone book its hard to believe! Well, okay, it was a phone book. Got to compare against something, right?
These Cones are so good I take them to this Seattle audiophile club and show them around all excited and.... nobody cares. Except this one guy who goes on and on about how he has tried phone books, tennis balls, racquet balls, styrofoam, cones, spikes, on and on everything under the sun, he's tried it all there's just no way he's gonna be impressed- he makes this very clear to me- but okay you're the new guy let me borrow em why not. But they're not gonna work. No way.
Next day this guy calls me up gushing going on and on how great these are what are they again where did you find em how many can I get? I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it. This guy winds up like me, pretty much everything on BDR. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
A lot of what I knew about vibration control back then was based on my own experience with BDR, and learning from owner DJ Casser. This resulted in what became my guiding principles of vibration control: Mass, Stiffness, and Damping.
Important Lesson Number One: Don't be so quick to dismiss things just because you can't understand how they could work.
Couple years later unpacking a McCormack DNA1 amp the Owner's Manual says the included spike can be used to improve sound quality. Well now. As crazy as it still sounded this time its Steve McCormack, and he's already given me the spike, so what do I have to lose? Much to my surprise it did indeed improve the sound. Not a lot. But definitely more detail, clarity.
This is very early 1990's. There is no internet. I know precisely zero audiophiles. Until stumbling upon this one guy at work who says oh yeah and put your CDP on a phone book, and another one on top. Which sounded even crazier but the guy was serious and this being the 90's we all had phone books laying around so I gave it a shot. This time it was only the most barely perceptible improvement, but it was there. If you really listened for it. So not much. Then again, free. Wrapped some fabric around it, ran the CDP like this for quite some time.
Around this time I'm shopping for components for my new listening room when this guy is more excited about something called Black Diamond Racing Cones than the amp or whatever he was trying to sell me. So I get 3 of these things and they're so much better than the phone book its hard to believe! Well, okay, it was a phone book. Got to compare against something, right?
These Cones are so good I take them to this Seattle audiophile club and show them around all excited and.... nobody cares. Except this one guy who goes on and on about how he has tried phone books, tennis balls, racquet balls, styrofoam, cones, spikes, on and on everything under the sun, he's tried it all there's just no way he's gonna be impressed- he makes this very clear to me- but okay you're the new guy let me borrow em why not. But they're not gonna work. No way.
Next day this guy calls me up gushing going on and on how great these are what are they again where did you find em how many can I get? I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it. This guy winds up like me, pretty much everything on BDR. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
A lot of what I knew about vibration control back then was based on my own experience with BDR, and learning from owner DJ Casser. This resulted in what became my guiding principles of vibration control: Mass, Stiffness, and Damping.
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- 78 posts total
For turntables isolation is critical for everything else it is not. Just a waste of money.Sorry but for speakers it is more than very important..... My experience..... The impactful results of resonance/vibration controls embeddings is very audible....The problem is the way to reach results is a complex problem... I solve it myself for my speakers with sandwich of multi layered materials but it was, unbeknownst to me at first, unsufficient and not completely positive, then i added a damping loaded fine-tuned double set of springs boxes with asymmetrical fine-tuned compressing force for those under the speakers and for an another set under the load on top of the speakers...That gives astounding positive results on ALL counts not only between bass and high frequencies but for timbre accurate perception and imaging....The dissymetry between compressing force and the fine tuning of the load are CRUX of the matter....One set of springs boxes were not sufficient for me, it takes 2 sets for optimal spectacular results.... But it worked.... Saying other wise and vouching that vibrations/resonance embeddings controls is without interest and a waste of money reveal a lack of listening experiments ....I will concede tough that many branded products are probably only partially effective at best, for example the set of springs boxes under the speakers were not totally successful positive controls like it seems at first, it takes for me a double sets to reach naturalness of timbre, one set cannot do it because internal resonance of the speakers are too powerful with their negative impact but their power was decreased with a dissymetrical compressing force on the 2 sets of springs... But with a double sets it was spectacular indeed....Fine tuning the compressing load was very important and is very important even for one set of box springs....Then the easy solutions are perhaps difficult to reach...But the controls of vibrations with speakers is very important and not only for turntable where it is evident....My speakers are near my other electronic components on the same desk then particularly important for me to solve this problem... My best to you and to all.... |
“For turntables isolation is critical for everything else it is not.” I beg to differ as well. I’ve heard huge improvements by using isolation footers underneath my CD players and digital streamer that uses a HDD/SDD storage. I am quite happy with Finite Elemente’s Cerabase Slimline footers. No, I’m not a rep. LOL! |
turnbowm242 posts11-06-2020 6:48am@millercarbon - You never answered my question regarding SR, but I think the answer is rather clear. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you read he did answered you, the one time he will. You got your shot across the bow, and he sunk your row boat... :-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vibration / resonance are two different things.. Most speakers made with single and double layer 3/4 MDF, just won’t cut it.. HDF and panel breaks to control and tune the enclosure. You can’t have a thin light box. I found the more the enclosures sound like green concrete, laying on the ground, the easier it is to make the enclosure GO AWAY.. I’m not kidding at least 50 lb a foot for the enclosure. THEN vibration is not as big an issue, for the speakers drivers. Think about the enclosure shaking and a Voice coil trying to move smoothly through a very tight cylinder... Vibration is a driver killer in the long run... Vibration due to VIBRATION. BASS, making stuff shake... OK simple answers. I studied the mass loading thing. Interesting indeed!! It still has the same effect as a making the cabinet (enclosure) out of a better dampened cabinet material to begin with.. Aluminum, will ring like a bell, but cast the stuff, add fluff.. one great sounding material...Add 1 layer of rubber (silicone) between 3 layers of 3/4 mdf...Works good... For my TT stuff you have to have good isolation from the sound in the room and from the vibration it is making... BOTH help a lot for, my CD players too. I try to keep tube amps, isolated pretty much.. SS not near as much. I find less distortion, clearity, and longevity increased for the actual valves.. I lift cables because it’s easier to clean.. really, I lift and separate cables though, I won’t let cables touch AT ALL, if they have to cross, 90 degree. If I had it my way.. an Ampa style music room, no top, no sides, and carved out of a mountain side.... There would be NO vibration... Bring your own seat cushion, its gonna be a tough set without one... I set up and listen, for sometimes a year, then tear down inspect, change as needed.... always a little change or something I been working on.. Regards... |
- 78 posts total