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16 ohm speakers: any amp sounds better with more resolution. speaker cables less critical.

First,
  
Thanks to anyone who responds with whatever answers/opinions/advice comes from this. I'm retired, covid bound, Donna is taking care of everything holiday related, too much time, always curious.
..................................

I happened across this in an old thread started by Ralph (atmasphere)

"Sixteen ohms, BTW is a very simple means for getting more resolution out of your system, as nearly every amplifier made sounds better on 16 ohms than it will on 4 or 8 ohms. Speaker cables become far less critical too."

My speakers are 16 ohms (Electrovoice horn tweeter, horn mid, 15" woofer, crossover, rheostats, from 1958).
Extremely efficient, I have more than enough power. Amp, now and in the past all had 16 ohm taps.
Of course I can hook them up to my Cayin's 8 ohm taps now and listen, but facts, opinions, advice, to learn is good.
...........................


Lots of Questions? 

1. why/how do 16 ohm speakers make amps sound better, with more resolution? 

2. why speaker cables less critical? perhaps this is why I/we don't hear cable differences in my system?
I'm using my homemade twisted pair of cat 5 now (8 individually insulated small diameter solid core).

3.  to get exterior bias control: use 8 ohm tap for my 16 ohm speakers? (get alternate amp 4/8 no 16 tap,)

lose advantage(s)? 'sounds better'; 'more resolution'; 'speaker cables less critical'? 

this says slightly more mids:

http://blog.hughes-and-kettner.com/ohm-cooking-101-understanding-amps-speakers-and-impedance/

I can fine tune my speakers via their two rheostats: 'presence' and 'brilliance', so not really an issue for me.

4. Importance of Bias Control

how important is Bias? (I don't care about heat, power output, or tube life, just as bias affects sound). Frankly, using vintage tube receiver Fisher 500C, 800C and Fisher Mono Blocks 80Z, I have never checked or adjusted bias. I just put the control in the center position when cleaning insides/controls.

I have always used 16 ohm taps of various vintage tube and SS amps and newer current tube Cayin A88T. (original version, the only one with 16 ohm taps). It's bias control is internal, versions with safer external bias do not have 16 ohm taps.

5. replace their two rheostats? ('presence' and 'brilliance': copper wire-wound on ceramic body, mid/neutral position).
I have them in neutral position now, l/r frequency response equal.   

do I need to keep rheostats 16 ohms? use 8 ohm rheostat with 16 ohm drivers?

sales sheet says 16 ohm, but data sheet shows range 1.0 to 5k ohms. 

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/303/controls_rheostats-1228697.pdf

does that mean, the drivers will draw whatever they draw (varies thru frequency range anyway), doesn't matter as long as rheostat range starts 1.0 ohm, extends past say 100.0 ohms?

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/303/controls_rheostats-1228697.pdf

...........................................


thanks, Elliott











elliottbnewcombjr
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
13,101 posts
 
Dear @johnk : Please re-read my post and why I posted that way:

"" or a little extra warmth but the highs are detailed and relaxed. "

again where is that warm or relaxed kind of sounds coming from live MUSIC at nearfield listen to, a horn, cymballs, drums or even a violin or a piano. It does not exist and this is not a generalization and a fallacy: just does not exist.
Things are that the recording microphones are at nearfield position.

I posted :

"" and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). ""

That’s how at real SPL sounds/performs a good SS electronics designs. Music have all those adjectives and many more: natural brigthness or natural agressivenes or even sometimes harsh sound is how the JC-1's will performs when the recording asked for. It's not because it needs higher feedback levels.

Issue is understaND HOW LIVE music SOUNDS AND WHAT RECORDING MICRO’S PICK-UP AT REAL spl: THAT’S ss THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO STAY NEARER TO THE RECORDING TRUER TO THE RECORDINGS. tUBES CAN’T DO IT FOR SEVERAL WELL DOCUMENTED REASONS/FACTS. ( capital letter a finger error. ).

That manufacturer is totally wrong and as usual he never gives/gaves a first hand measured facts that can prove his false information. Exacvtly like today always takes/took another reference that proves nothing here, so useless to give him an answer.

You know, in the world exist honest and dishonest people. Make your own judgement because this " episode " is repeated again for the 1,000 time.

Btw, I respect your opinion and I don’t try to make any offense to any one but only post facts and that’s all.

R.


atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,851 posts
 
Btw, I respect your opinion and I don’t try to make any offense to any one but only post facts and that’s all.
Just before that:
That manufacturer is totally wrong and as usual he never gives/gaves a first hand measured facts that can prove his false information. Exacvtly like today always takes/took another reference that proves nothing here, so useless to give him an answer.

You know, in the world exist honest and dishonest people. Make your own judgement because this " episode " is repeated again for the 1,000 time.
The contradiction here is pretty obvious, as are the motives behind it.

I take it then, @rauliruegas that when given the choice of educating yourself, or being stupid, you didn't choose the former.


Instead, you chose to make me wrong for the sake of making yourself seem to look better. In time you might sort out that this technique does not work. But at any time, you will find that redemption is readily available- just read the article I linked, and google the topics I mentioned, and really study them. This is engineering school stuff- if you are fluent with it, you won't appear to be stupid *or* ignorant!

When you say:
"" and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). ""

That’s how at real SPL sounds/performs a good SS electronics designs. Music have all those adjectives and many more: natural brigthness or natural agressivenes or even sometimes harsh sound is how the JC-1's will performs when the recording asked for. It's not because it needs higher feedback levels.

Issue is understaND HOW LIVE music SOUNDS AND WHAT RECORDING MICRO’S PICK-UP AT REAL spl: THAT’S ss THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO STAY NEARER TO THE RECORDING TRUER TO THE RECORDINGS. tUBES CAN’T DO IT FOR SEVERAL WELL DOCUMENTED REASONS/FACTS. 
You must certainly be aware that tubes have no problems at all reproducing the aggressive nature of a trumpet at close range (and played loudly, as that can make a big difference). In fact everything you mentioned in the above quote (which very much reads as if you are saying that only solid state amps can do) tube amps do easily. You really need to try harder than that.

What you missed in my comments was that I was not advocating tubes, in the same way that I was not advocating typical solid state amps that lack sufficient feedback. They **both** have failings, so you pick your poison: either a bit of euphonic warmth or a harshness and brightness.


OR:
If the amp has **enough** feedback, it will simply be neutral. To do that takes a lot of feedback, and as I mentioned, putting that much feedback on most tube or solid state amps will cause them to oscillate due to the phase margins being exceeded. Now I tried to get you to google that, so you'd know what I was talking about. This is the difference between education and ... well... not.


Now given that any amp will have distortion, the trick is to minimize it, and the way to do that with any amplifier is to simply allow it to drive a load that is higher impedance (and usually less weird phase angles as a result). IOW, simple advice: If you want the most out of your amplifier investment dollar, don't make your amp work hard for a living.


When the amp has an easy job, it makes less distortion. Less distortion means less coloration (warmth or brightness).
charles1dad's avatar
charles1dad
10,250 posts
 
Hi Raul,
As a former trumpeter I agree this instrument is certainly capable of sounding harsh, bright and aggressive. Believes me that the trumpet can definitely sound "warm,sweet and relaxed" . Just depends on what the musician wants to express or communicate while p,aying. And this is with the instrument in my hands. Can’t be anymore near field than that.

One of my former instructors who was a professional trumpeter (And fugelhorn) could play with such full, fat and warm tone (This is how he described it BTW) simply emotional and gorgeous harmonic color. So these terms aren’t "ridiculous adjectives " as you wrote, quite the contrary.

Raul having heard the trumpet intimately (And many instruments) for years ultimately pushed me toward tubes for what was a more realistic reproduction. I  respect your preference for solid state electronics. I’m just providing my own experience with very close proximity to live instruments. Tubes can impressively reproduce both the dynamic bite and the gentle sweetness instruments are capable of.
Charles
elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,521 posts
 
charles1dad

on topic, what impedance are your speakers?

off topic, I love trumpets!

Wonderful and warm sounding trumpet! I'd love to hear you play live. Any recordings I could listen to? (send me a private message perhaps)

Reading Raul, I was just thinking of when I heard Hugh Masekela live, sitting close in a very small club in NYC. Fantastic, did I say Fantastic. I have many Hugh recordings, highly enjoyable, but live ...

I told him he was the best trumpet player ever. He replied, no, don't say that, looked at the ceiling, said there's a ghost of Louis Armstrong here, he was the best.

The musical performances I choose to go to (used to go to) were chosen to hear someone live. I sit around here saying to Donna, it must be awesome to hear ... live. Even then, it's a stage, it's a mic, a sound system, yet there is 

Are you Korean? Just being funny, I spent several years watching Korean Dramas on Dramafever.com. Many times the parents were referred to (kid's name) ..... dad. Charles not the most common Korean name.

regards, Elliott
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
When Miles wanted to be mellow he would point the trumpet down and possibly use a mute. When he wanted to let you have it he would point the trumpet right at you and fire away. It was up to the musician. It is mostly speakers that make trumpets sound harsher than normal.

Raul the JC1 has been superseded y the JC1+ which is now readily available. It is very similar but even larger and costs $16K a pair which is still dirt cheep in comparison to other amps of it's quality.

Ralph one thing the JC1 is not is harsh. It is one of the smoothest most effortless amps I have ever heard. Not that your MA2 is even better. The Sound Labs are certainly a match made in heaven with your MA2 given the extremely high impedance at low frequencies. I do believe this would give your amp more control/lower distortion at those frequencies. However I still believe in taking the deep bass away from ESLs. The diaphragms have a very limited Xmax. They get non linear easily creating distortion at higher frequencies never mind the doppler effect. The ESLs become even more effortless and higher sound pressure levels stay perfectly controlled and relaxed. Without subwoofers the ESLs will start sounding stressed at higher volumes. This is certainly the case with Acoustats. I can not see why it would be different with Sound Labs speakers. I will listen to them full range for a few days to see if this opinion holds. I do believe I listen at higher volumes than most people but I have discovered that with subwoofer I am quite satisfied 5 or so dB lower. Loudness compensation also helps a lot in this regard. 
My wife is my distortion meter. She will tolerate higher volumes with the subwoofers running:-)
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