Jazz for aficionados

Hey frogman are you going to answer my inquiry a little further up this page on "mindless riffing"?

Happy New Year!

Yes I am, pjw. Patience, patience ! 😊 I was literally about to start writing when your post came through. My plan was to incorporate acman3’s timely question “What no Henderson?” into my response to yours. First of all, good to see you back here.

The quick answer to your question is, no surprise I’m sure, Coltrane. I can’t think of any player that would “stretch out” as much as Trane and would go into the stratosphere to such heights. However, per the other important part of your question, in extended solos such as Trane would play it is not simply a matter of how far the player, as you say, “overstretches totally beyond the melody”. I would leave the “over” out of “overstretches” which implies that this is going too far. It’s a very important distinction which goes to the heart of what “mindless riffing” is.

Classic and great improvisations like the ones that players of Coltrane’s stature (not many) would play usually start with one musical idea, sometimes a very simple musical idea (theme) which has some relation to the melody and/or harmony of the tune. A great player then develops and expands that idea (“thematic development”) always going back in one way or another to that initial improvised idea.  As the solo builds the player can literally turn that idea inside out and upside down with many “variations” of that idea even to the point (in very extended solos) that there is seemingly very little relation to the melody of the tune. The key is whether the player can maintain some kind of relation to that melody even if in a very obtuse manner and often not obvious at all; and then, after all the explorations into “the stratosphere” bring it all back home in a musically logical way. THAT is the genius of a great improviser. That this can be done on the spot is truly an amazing musical feat. Coltrane was a master of this.

”Mindless riffing” is when a player who doesn’t have the command of harmony and the inventiveness that a Coltrane did (most don’t) just plays licks that, individually, may sound good and even exciting, but are not held together to form ONE complete improvised composition with musical logic. Often there isn’t even a solid relationship to the melody of the tune.

So, I wouldn’t say that Coltrane “overstretched” at all. He stretched very far and beyond the tolerance of some listeners, but there was always a musical logic to it. The review you quoted does a good job of expounding on some of this. It is also important to note that while a listener may not be aware on a conscious level of the above “technicalities”, usually when we are emotionally moved by a player’s performance it is because that musical logic is happening. When we are left cold it is often because that logic is not there. It may seem to some that “musical logic” and “emotionally moved” are contradictory terms, but they are not.

Re acman3’s tongue in cheek question (great clips, btw):

It was timely because I was going to post some Joe Henderson in response to your question and as an example of another tenor player who could also “stretch out” a lot in live situations without any “mindless riffing”. Ultimately, this is what separates the greats from the just good and even the excellent improvisers.

One of my favorite Joe Henderson records:

https://youtu.be/ulEMnBRA284

https://youtu.be/NPgr6FkBXHA

Speaking of Joe Henderson and O-10’s mention the meeting of Jazz and Classical. A tune composed by Ferde Grofe as part of his “Grand Canyon Suite”:

https://youtu.be/uGFqtChmFr0

In case anyone is interested in the original:

https://youtu.be/Y50hzjAq_3c

Pwj, My non-musician take is those 4 did not noodle around, although many, I am sure, would say Coltrane could have been more economical with his notes. :)  

If you have ever tried to improvise on any song/chord you will find your mind has notes it likes to play to resolve what you hear against the cords. It always amazes me how these greats could play so much music without constantly repeating themselves. 

Frogman, I was trying to find Joe Henderson playing "Tenor Madness" to compare directly with the others.