Solid state amplifiers and sound stage, especially front to back "depth"

good topic, worthwhile discussion @hilde45

i agree with those who have stated the degree of quietness/blackness and low distortion of ss amps helps them fully develop the stereo image and soundstage ... this is the case with hegel pass ayre imo... that ultra deep dark background helps imaging depth and specificity

that been said, i think tube amps (at least very good ones, with power, damping factor and good s/n) expand/magnify the sense of imaging - this i believe is from how they handle harmonics (aided by harmonic distortion) and differing decay of notes (thus you get a sense of bloom and air around notes) which aids in their developing the illusion of soundstaging depth - audio research ref and vac renaissance amps do this, as do the lta zotl and to some degree the carver crimson in my experience

lastly, of course, recording quality is key... the info needs to be there

Amplifier design is critical for achieving, or not, really good imaging/soundstaging.

It has nothing to do with tubes or SS devices! It has to do with design and execution. You can have a flat wall soundscape with either tubes or transistors. It’s not the device that determines it. It’s completely about the amplifier design.

I think tubes amp manufacturers do especially when it comes to bass control and transient speed 

yogiboy3,968 posts05-10-2021 10:30pmMany solid state amplifier manufactures and reviewers boast about having a tube like sound. When is the last time that you have seen a tube amp manufacturer boast about having a solid state like sound? I wonder why that is?

There is lot more involve reproducing sound stage depth. First and foremost is the recording itself. Audio chain cannot reproduce "depth" if it not encoded in to the recording. Most of my classical music recordings have excellent depth or front-to-back layering.

 I listen mostly to symphonies and concerti. Well engineered recordings capture a wide and deep soundstage. Minimal mic techniques result in a sense of space in all directions whereas modern multi, close mic'd recordings lose that imaging. The soundstage may extend beyond the speakers, but 3D imaging is lost. There are some classical labels and certain concert halls which today reproduce a deep soundstage. 
This is a genre which proves depth is in the recording.

@djones51 
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php
Thank you so much for this webpage. I'm going to make good use of this. Really looks great!

I've added photos to my system — which is still very much in "proto type" aesthetically and cord management-wise, but which is measuring and sounding quite good. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9064

@mapman @lowrider57  @parker65310 @pwerahera 
Agree that it's a combination of many factors, including how the recording is made, speakers setup, and room acoustics; yes, these *all* determine "exactly how those cues are rendered and imaging and soundstage actually produced." That is why I am comparing exactly the same *very, well done and rich sound-staged* recordings. (I'd have to be using good recordings otherwise what would be the point of trying to compare amps?)

Also, these are being played on the same streaming service, in the same room, with the same speakers, in the same position. The interconnects are all the same. The power conditions, the room, etc. are all the same. *The* thing changing is the amplifier. As a friendly reminder, I'm trying to frame a precise question with stable conditions in order to isolate a single factor and elicit information about just that factor.

The Bel Canto and Ohm combination sounds interesting. A similar Bel Canto would run, say, $6k right now? That's almost 3x the price of the AVA, but knowing that a SS (Class D) CAN produce such impressive soundstage says something about the original question. Mbl's are much more, I understand.

@aubreybobb obb The SS amps are not at 600 -800 hours yet. Maybe 100 hours, at the most. As for resonance and vibration, I've never heard that "tube amps are more resistant to this factor." I always thought they were LESS resistant, because of the glass tubes. That's a startling claim and I have never heard that before.

@jjss49  I wish I had those other amps for comparison with the AVA. I know that Pass voices his amps, and Paul McGowan has spoken about this extensively. I don't know if he still believes this, but Van Alstine has said (14 Sep 2006)

"I have no clue about "voicing" an amplifier. It is NOT a musical instrument. It is not supposed to "sound good". The best it can do is to not screw up the information presented at its inputs and drive whatever load is connected to it without interacting with or being modified by the load….We will leave "voicing" to trumpets and tubas and such, and keep doing basic evaluation of circuit electronics…..We did not spend any time "voicing", only refining our engineering knowledge and the application of that." [Source: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76587.20 ]

That's a surprising thing to hear from someone who makes good gear. Surely he listens to what his customers say, he goes to shows, listens to gear, etc. He may have said this as some kind of retort to someone else's overly-mushy (from an engineer's standpoint) statements. But without that kind of charity for him, it betrays an unenviable bull-headedness.

@wolfie62 may be right when saying, "Amplifier design is critical for achieving, or not, really good imaging/soundstaging."

If it is the case that tube amps do this quite typically but solid state do not, it may NOT be attributable to the kind of device at work but results speak the loudest, I suppose. Maybe it is merely that fewer solid state designers focus or try to accomplish a sonic objective that tube designers do. That's an important difference for some, but probably not for the end user who wants a rich sound stage.