Upscale Audio and Primaluna

I've always replaced output tubes at the 2000-2500 hour mark. Could they go longer? Sure. But that's only if you are willing to live with the degradation in sound, because you will surely notice the improvement when you replace them. So it's a matter of how frugal you are vs how important the sound is to you. Tubes are just like us human beings. They start "dying" from the minute they start "living". And also just like us, the difference is subtle over time that we hardly notice it. But if you woke up tomorrow and were 20 again, I think you'd know.

I think you are fine.  If you purchased a good set of tubes from Upscale that is wonderful.  My experience was different.  They said the tubes were matched and within Audio Research specs.  They weren't and it cost me over $3,000 to repair.  

I've purchased pre-amp tubes and phono stage matched tubes from Upscale and they were fine.  Wouldn't have a problem doing that again.  apologies if I gave the impression I wouldn't ever.  I'll just be more careful with power amp tubes.  That could be/was a costly mistake if they fair.  

I'm sure Upscale would have replaced the faulty tube, but they probably wouldn't have covered the repair costs of the amp.  Audio Research would.  But the tubes are probably twice as expensive.  But, AR does test and match each tube, and that does take time and expense to do that.

Also, I appreciate Kevin's response above.  It was well written and I really appreciate him stepping up with a response.  The Prima vs Audio Research REF 6 was an actual event that a good buddy of mine experienced.  I didn't appreciate the sales pitch where he was flatly told the prima was better.  That was crap and was unnecessary.  The Prima is a fine pre-amp for the money.  The REF 6 way more expensive and not in the class or range of the Prima.  Telling a potential buyer that solves the issue. 

That is like a mid range car vs a high end supercar.  Not even a fair comparison and who in their right mind would even compare the two?  Well, the rude people on the old top gear show maybe.  They compared a Camaro with a top of the line Mercedes AMG.  Stupid comparison.  not even in the same class or price range.  But, they really didn't like the USA, so there you are.

So, why compare a REF 6 with a Prima?  apples to apples would be better.  I've dealt with many fine dealers.  I've never done business with dealers that do that.  comparing a unit that is in the same price range or quality of a Prima?  I have no problem with that.  As a matter of fact, that is exactly what should be done.

enjoy

@fsonicsmith Thank you for your kind words and for reading my business right. I like selling big-ticket items too of course but spent my teenage years with my nose pressed up against the glass windows of stereo stores longing to get the best I could with not a lot of money. I get that.

The Ah! Tjoeb was a $549 bargain made in Holland. It weighed what it should. It was a life-changing product for me after making so many people happy.

The Chinook SE MKII with upgraded NOS tubes is $2799, and weighs as much or more than $5k preamps I can mention, and almost as much as a popular $9k preamp. Why then isn’t the Chinook $5k? Because EveAnna Manley said so. The prices charged by high-end audio manufacturers are sometimes arbitrary. If anyone wants a certain name and is willing to pay it that’s cool with me. I just tell it like it is.

The majority of companies do a great job with owners that really care. But no other industry would swallow the B.S. that gets sold here. There are more former nuclear submarine engineers with top-secret clearance working in audio than any other business. My Vice President Craig actually has that clearance and we laugh about coming out with some magic box. I’ve been asked to lend my name to projects that would be money-makers but were obvious snake oil so I declined. I would love to write a book. In 45 years in this industry, I’ve seen it all.

I have a little more insight into how stuff is made than most because I have samples traded in all the time. I love audio and understanding how things work. I take products apart and look up part numbers and their costs with my service tech who is also a pro audio circuit designer. Coming from pro audio he just shakes his head and laughs at some of the stuff we see. It would never fly in that business. Musicians are or often broke...and cheap.

I see "new upgraded" models with higher price tags using cheaper volume chips. I see an amp with two driver tubes and two gain tubes being replaced by a "new upgraded" model with a  higher price tag also with cheaper chips plus the elimination of driver tubes that get replaced with an FET. Or companies that tell you their cathode bias amp is auto bias. One of them actually changed their website description to what is technically correct after I pointed out to them it was misleading. Then months later, they changed it back to auto-bias.

Regardless, the vast majority of companies do a great job with wonderful owners that care about making a great product.

I’m tasked with explaining how the brands that I represent are made and work. Whether we retail or import/distribute them.

In every PrimaLuna video we produce, I talk about parts and engineering. Weight is a factor that I emphasize more with preamps because they can be a profit center for manufacturers. Much like soft drinks to a restaurant. As you said, parts quality is more important, which is why I show them and describe them in detail. I’m very proud of that. You guys have no idea what a freak Herman is about component selection. Part for part, I can compare PL to any brand at its price or double its price.

The late great Art Dudley said it best: "I’ve never seen a better-built amp. ... Someone made this as if it mattered."

To your point on the PrimaLuna preamp sound, second harmonics are certainly the way to go, which is why people (including me) love tubes.

But the real glory comes from the Holy Trinity for tube preamp design: Dual-mono, tube rectification, point-to-point wiring.

I’ve called Upscale Audio a few times but have yet to buy anything from them. I never felt pressured to buy anything from them, let alone a Primaluna product. I think a lot depends on who you talk to on a given day. For example, when I was looking for a headphone amp, Kevin put me in touch with one of his headphone amp experts. We exchanged a couple of text messages, but as soon as I brought up another amp that I was considering (Quicksilver headphone amp), the guy disappeared. Simply stopped responding to my messages.

I called them another time to get advice on streamers. Totally opposite experience. The guy was courteous, responded to all my questions, and followed up with another call.

Based on my experience, and mine alone, I think that because they’re so busy, they put a higher premium on their time. So while I never felt pressured or shortchanged, I never got the same level of interest or the willingness to get to know me as a potential long term customer. Contrast this to a few other dealers I’ve talked to, e.g. Wolf Audio, John Ruttan, Reno Hifi, etc. They came across as folks who had a genuine interest in getting to know me, my current system, and my desired outcome. It almost felt like having a conversation with a good friend who is genuinely interested in building a long term relationship with you. Upscale Audio, while courteous and helpful, simply didn't give me the same level of attention. Of course, YMMV.

@arafiq Al my sales staff are different.  One customer might feel this salesperson is too touchy-feely and wants to get to the point, and another wants a new friend.  Everyone's different, whether customer or staff. 

If you meet one that you like, ask for them.  Nobody gets butt hurt that you bought from another salesperson because they don't get paid for selling it to you. We're implementing new software systems next month that will make it easier than ever for you to have a history with us so we know where your heads at and get right to your favorite person.  If that person is out, anyone can step in and look at your audio "medical records"

As to being too busy, yes that was true, especially during Covid.  Even the first quarter of 2021 we were up 70% over 2020.  That may sound good to you but not to me.  My employees are not machines.  They are people and absolutely beat tired.  Tough year given they had to work remotely at times and there have been so many product supply problems.    

Just last week with everything like travel re-opening it suddenly and profoundly slowed down.  Thank God. But I'm TRULY SORRY if anyone sounded rushed during the peak periods.

Also before I bag out of here I'd like to say something about tube life.  The best tube tester is your ears.  Buy a new set, run them 200 hours, then compare them to the old set.  If the old ones sound good then leave them.  Yes you can get a lot more hours than you think from tubes.  It depends on how hard they are running. 

I have a customer that was new to tubes that bought a DiaLogue Premium with KT120's and his buddy told him to never turn it off as it would sound better so he did just that for over six months before checking back with us.   I told him that's not good and with over 4300 hours he should replace them.  But because I wanted to help him out we would re-test his now worn-out tubes to see if anything could be salvaged.   

I was shocked after I tested them.  He had the original boxes with test results and after 4300 hours they were at 90% of new.  Running a low plate voltage and easy biasing works.  Regardless, it's about the sound.  Especially when tubes are new old stock or are expensive. 

About the fellow that got a bad tube and his ARC amp blew up.  We buy from where they buy.  I pay more for my KT150's wholesale than guys sell them for on Ebay, so use your noggin.  We burn them in for 72 hours, and I had custom programming done for my Ampitrex to mimic the actual ARC design, and we've had great success with that. We spend 10 minutes testing each KT150 because they have to settle down. If there was any process that could be improved, we would do it. 

But any tube can fail.  They have failures too.     KT150's are kind of a jacked-up tube because they can take a hit in shipping that changes how they measure. Rare, but happens.  I have had guys buy tubes from ARC and had shorts that broke their amps and they don't pay for repairs if your amp is out of warranty. Things simply don't work that way.  

A tube short should not break your amp if it has a plate fuse, but up until just recently, ARC did not use them.  Now that's changing. I know my stuff and worked for a very large ARC dealer (probably the biggest) way back in the day.  My Classic 60 blew up twice but I was probably asking for it dinking around too much.  Back then I had plate and screen resistors on hand to do it myself. 

Great people, nice amp but that's the way it is.   New ownership there now and I bet they do good things. I wish them tons of success.