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Cables that measure the same but (seem?) to sound different

I have been having an extended dialogue with a certain objectivist who continues to insist to me that if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same.

In response, I have told him that while I am not an engineer or in audio, I have heard differences in wires while keeping the acoustic environment static. I have told him that Robert Harley, podcasters, YouTuber's such as Tarun, Duncan Hunter and Darren Myers, Hans Beekhuyzen, Paul McGowan have all testified to extensive listening experiments where differences were palpable. My interlocutor has said that either it is the placebo effect, they're shilling for gear or clicks, or they're just deluded.

I've also pointed out that to understand listening experience, we need more than a few measurement; we also need to understand the physiology and psychological of perceptual experience, as well as the interpretation involved. Until those elements are well understood, we cannot even know what, exactly, to measure for. I've also pointed out that for this many people to be shills or delusionaries is a remote chance at best.

QUESTION: Who would you name as among the most learned people in audio, psychoacoustics, engineering, and psychology who argue for the real differences made by interconnects, etc.?
128x128hilde45
hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
5,099 posts
 
A little while ago I received this direct message from a user who no longer wishes to post on the forum. I wanted to add it to the thread (despite the fact that it paints my question as borne of ignorance -- see: "If the test was not blind it did not happen. Period. Until you are willing to accept this, you are just wasting your and other people's time asking this question.")

He approved of me quoting his direct communication with me. Here it is.

QUESTION: Who would you name as among the most learned people in audio, psychoacoustics, engineering, and psychology who argue for the real differences made by interconnects, etc.?

Literally none who claim that similar measuring speaker cables sound the same are "learned". Anyone with a modicum of real technical knowledge who has also done actual experiments, not the crap that are called experiments, know that two cable that measure the same will sound the same.

If the test was not blind it did not happen. Period. Until you are willing to accept this, you are just wasting your and other people's time asking this question. Let Miller and OregonPapa and others have their delusions.

NO CABLE VENDOR HAS DONE A PUBLIC BLIND TEST EVER WITH SUPER EXPENSIVE WIRE AND COMPETENT WIRE.

NEVER. NOT EVEN ONCE.

If that does not tell you all you need to know, I don't know what will….

I have extensive academic and real world expertise in electronics, signal processing and psychoacoustics. I have many colleagues who are similar. None of the people making these claims are "learned". Paul McGowan is not "learned". Even Nelson Pass is limited to a fairly a narrow area of electronics and his analysis of cables was w.r.t. where significant differences existed in cable parameters. He stays away from the topic for a reason, just like his says competent amps don't need expensive fuses.

hilde45's avatar
hilde45 OP
5,099 posts
 
@djones51 A good reply and, as usual, I’m learning from your posts. One thing which trips me up on this topic is the presumption that we know completely what to measure *for*. The flaws in human perception, bias, subjective attention, etc. are all really strong indications that the "subjective" assessment is less than perfect. But I cannot see how we can have a proof that the "objective" measurement side can be confident that every thing which can and should be measured is known. We cannot have closure on the objective side because it’s attempting to measure attributes which connect to a subjective-psychological side about which our knowledge is incomplete -- indeed, might never be complete. In this regard, measurement is like map-making. No map is ever complete, because maps are tools meant to serve purposes, and since purposes change and become more complex, maps, too, change.
decooney
2,226 posts
 
After all the attempted measuring is exhausted, Taste wine, Listen to cable changes.  

In the end its up to you what is good.
avitacom
90 posts
 
Allow me to commend and support the observations made by the “user,” as quoted by hilde45.
In medical school, I was trained that the way to evaluate the effectiveness or relative strength of a device, a drug, a method, etc. is by conducting a placebo controlled double blind study.  In our area of interest, the data for such a study would be generated by panels of experienced listeners (audiophiles).  I suspect that manufacturers of tweaks, like cables, will not conduct or publish such  tests because of fear of the effects of the results on sales.
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