If a " system " cannot do this, I move on........


I have been advocating on here for some time, that horn speakers ( properly designed, tweeked, executed and set up ) are the only speakers that my brain and ears find acceptable, for the enjoyment of music listening. My listening standard has been live, unamplified music, for now over 50 years. I have also stated on many occasions, that as an audiophile ( as well as being a music listener ), that we are hindered by the recordings themselves, minimizing what we actually are hearing. There has been much talk lately about engineers using " auto tune " ( specifically with vocalists ). Adele ( I am a fan ), with her new hit " Easy On Me ", does not use auto tune, and I am thrilled. Besides being a great singer, she sounds " natural ", less processed. Most recordings in the past 20 years, have used this other electronic " equalization " if you will, that we find embedded in out prescious recordings. The strive for perfection, that " audio nirvana ", we all seek, with the purchase of a new speaker, amplifier, cables, etc., gets us only so far. So yes, dynamics and details are very important to me. Tone, coherence and spatiality are also very important. But the reality is, our recordings, by the time we receive / hear them ( whatever format ), have been severly altered from being close to the real thing. Yet, audiophiles continue to spend big bucks on their gear, their rooms ( their systems ), to get to that place of enjoyment. The title of this thread, " If a system cannot do this, I move on ", has a specific meaning. What I listen for, most of all, with every recording I listen to, is an engagenment between me, and the performers. Following the individual rhythms and musical lines, by the artists, is the number one factor I strive to hear. My system allows for this. My question is : how many of you actually listen for this, or even know what I am speaking of. My personal experience listening to so many high priced systems, has been very disappointing in using this criteria. I am not anticipating this thread to develop into a very large or popular one, but I have not participated in Agon for a while, and I just wanted to shine a light on a subject that is crucial to us and our time listening to music, which some of us spend much time doing. Enjoy, and be well. Always, MrD.

mrdecibel

Great post.

Horns plus tubes equals bliss (to me). Once I heard this combination I knew I was done looking for a system that works with the music I like. 

Some people are audiophiles because of the cool gear. Some people are audiophiles because of the music. I think some people are listening to the gear and not the music. Listen with your ears and not an oscilloscope.  

 

Hey, this isn't that complicated.  If you like horn speakers, that just means you like what they do to the music.  I would note that almost no one who listens to music critically for commercial purposes does so on horn speakers. But you do, and are listening for enjoyment, so good for you.  They help make the music come alive for you, and that's all that really matters.  

My main point, however, is this:  Don't fool yourself,  Whether you are listening to Adele or to any other pop artist, you are always listening to music that has been processed, and bears no relationship to a "room".  All pop music is tracked, using multiple takes, and is uniformly EQ'd and compressed, with reverb or delay, and usually with some amount of tweaking of pitch or editing of individual notes and sound waves.  Whatever you think you are hearing is there because a sound engineer put it there.  The good news is that the emotions of the music and the talent of the performer still shine through.  So, enjoy what you hear, just know what you are really hearing.

 

Hey everyone. I appreciate everyone’s comments, positive and negative, as well as my return to Agon, posting. As we all know, anyone on this site, is surely adimant about certain things related to this hobby. I do not judge the preference that folks have ( there was a time I did, when I consulted in helping people build a better system suited to their " tastes " ). Are horns up front and in your face ? Not in my room. They do have a dispersion characteristic that minimises side room bounderay reflections, at least with me and my system. Their dynamics brings out much that is lost due to the recordings ( again the staple of our hobby ), and I appreciate that, especially coming from my live musical background, so shoot me for that. Adele not being talented ? Really ? You might not like her music, but come on people. I also love Sarah Vaughn, Billie Holiday, Barbara Steisand, Krall, Barber, and hundreds of others, so shoot me, again. If someone is using mini monitors, and they feel they are getting the most out of their music listening....I am thrilled for them. The entire point of this hobby, and my post, is getting to that point of enjoying our music, without ever thinking about what is missing from the experience, as so many do, leading to the upgrade bug. On another thread a while back, I had mentioned the recordings by the genius of Tony Minasian of Tonian Labs, stating that if all recordings sounded this way, we would not need to spend a fortune on gear to compensate for what is not there ( the Sheffield mention was a good point of a great recording ). But, I cannot only listen to SOTA recordings, because my listening pallette would be empty of so much enjoyment. I never said Adele’s recording are great....but I do feel her voice and vocal talents are. Are some people not understanding that it is the " talent " of our favorite musicians, that makes this hobby what it is. A band I have loved forever is Jethro Tull. Recordings are poor, but the MUSIC is wonderful, exciting, a joy for me to listen to. I know many people who could not listen to this band on their systems, because technically, the engineering is not up to snuff. That is their loss, imo. There are many posters on this thread that get what I am saying, but a few are still lost, based on my understanding of their words. So again, Enjoy, and be well. Until my next post....Always, MrD.

@mrdecibel,  Nice description of what many of us heard as teenagers when our listening preferences were being formed.  The sound of Altec and Klipsch horn speakers in the 1970s is what did it for me.  

As many have pointed out, Klipsch speakers in particular really benefit from upgrading their stock capacitors.  They have also made some improvements in their Heritage line over the years.  However, I can’t say I like the sound of their “modern” tower speakers vs. their old school designs.  Again, personal preference, but even they have proven not all horn speakers are created equal.

Recently, I finished a modified Altec Model 19 project giving the 416A woofer its own reinforced cabinet and tried new and old compression drivers and horns to find the most enjoyable combination.  So even if you’re in the horn camp, there are different flavors for your own preference. 

Trying different capacitors in Zilch’s Z-19 crossover actually surprised me as to how much it could change the sonics of the speakers, for good or bad vs. what I was looking for.  (But this is for any speaker, not just horns, though they tend to reveal the differences more.)

But it’s not just the electronic altering of the recording that engineers use to get a certain sound, it starts with how the room is setup acoustically with room treatments.  I would suggest that horn speakers are more in need of proper acoustic room treatments to sound their best, especially in reflections points between the speaker and listener.  

Engineers also affect the sound with the instrument or vocalist’s position in relationship to the microphone.  Given the horn’s by-design directed sound distribution, their placement in the room and to the listening position, especially toe-in, also seem to alter their sound more than all-cone speakers. 

That said, I’ve heard capable horn speakers sound bad when the room, placement, etc., is not set up correctly.  I’d even say they can be made to sound worse than a non-horn speaker in a poorly prepared listening environment.  This could be why some people are anti-horn.

So, while horns may need more attention to detail to sound their best, the rewards can be as you described.  Thanks for reminding us it’s about enjoying the music.