Speaker positioning: why do audiophiles neglect this so much?

“The basic gist of the discussion was that the most important elements of a high end stereo installation are listening position and speaker positioning, in that order.  The actual hardware (speakers, amplifiers, source, cables etc) are of less importance relatively speaking.”

Cool.  All I need is Bose wave radio with it and my chair in the right spot.  
 

This is what people tell you when they want you to pay them to come to your house and setup your system for you.

rauliruegas always ends his posts with " enjoy the music not distortions." I could not agree more. Distortion is always measurable and there are usually ways to decrease these distortions... if you know what they are and what is causing them. 

If you want the best performance out of your two channel system you have to know what you are dealing with by measuring it. Throwing fancy cables and fuses at the problem praying they will work is an odd way to go about it when devices are available at a reasonable cost that allow you to understand what your system is doing and point the way to improvement. It is entirely possible to get relatively inexpensive systems performing at a very high level, higher then systems costing 10 times as much. Back in the early 80s we constructed a system around Rogers LS3 5As on stands, Levinson electronics and RH Labs subwoofers in a carefully treated room that was positively stunning. What we had was very expensive measurement gear that today with the computer power we have is a mere fraction of the expense and available to everyone.

There is some equipment that is incapable of SOTA performance but, there is a forest of inexpensive gear that is capable of performing at the highest levels if you know what you are doing with it. 

What is it exactly that we are trying to achieve?  Certainly there can be no argument that we want the lowest levels of IM distortion and noise. You want to start with the flattest frequency response ideally from 18 Hz to 20 kHz and even more importantly the response curve should look the same in both channels ideally within 1 dB of each other. This can be very tough to achieve. It generally requires a purpose designed room and the clever use of room treatment or under less ideal circumstances digital signal processing. If both channels are not doing precisely the same thing you can not expect to achieve the best imaging. Any asymmetry in the room can cause serious diversions of the response curves. I learned this the hard way. I put a window on the outside wall of my listening room thinking it would not cause too much trouble. It caused a 10 dB variation in the frequency response above 12 kHz in the right channel that caused me to burn out a high frequency balance control trying to correct it. This Summer we are removing that window and boarding it up.

The problem with being a true audiophile is that you are always thinking something could sound better. Some people throw money at the problems others throw luck and money. I prefer to throw thought and as little money as I can get away with. One more thing. Do not replace your own thinking with someone else's. Humans are way too dangerous for that. Marketing is the fine art of lying your ass off to get anybody to buy your stuff. You would be best served by blocking it out entirely.

"The problem with being a true audiophile is that you are always thinking something could sound better. Some people throw money at the problems others throw luck and money. I prefer to throw thought and as little money as I can get away with. One more thing. Do not replace your own thinking with someone else's. Humans are way too dangerous for that. Marketing is the fine art of lying your ass off to get anybody to buy your stuff. You would be best served by blocking it out entirely."

Good read-insightful post, mijostyn.

Audio as a hobby is one of the more satisfying activities, but it's also maybe the most polarizing when it comes to discussing "how it REALLY works".

I was at my neighborhood record store yesterday. The owner is 70 with some of the most interesting customer stories/collection encounters. One of his longtime regulars(retired audio retail) and a customer(audio enthusiast) started with a light  casual chat because they discovered the mutual audio obsession.

According to the record store owner, it started out as a conversation anyone could understand. It then evolved into audiospeak which he felt was getting heated because of some disagreement about "audio rules" and other things he didn't have knowledge of. He had to graciously "time out" these guys because it was starting to look bad in front of the other customers! 

To him, audiophiles  are just as strange as his Millennial/Gen Z customers.

Side note-I picked up this 1957 release. Anyone into  Jazz on LP should have this in their collection. World Pacific  was one of true "golden era" labels. Real audiophool quality that will make ANY setup sound great. The Mastersounds  are the Montgomery brothers. Being a Wes fan, I get anything associated with "the thumb." Good listen.

The problem with being a true audiophile is that you are always thinking something could sound better.

It is not always true...

When your vibrations control is done, when you had put in place some solution about the decresing of the electrical noise floor of the house and gear, and when the acoustic treatment and especially mechanical control of the room is done well, your audio system NOW play at his optimal working level... You are done and only stay a marvellous musical experience...

You now know how good are your piece of gear and what his the weakest link in your system... In mine it is my marvellous Sansui....NOt my low cost dac at all ... 😁😊 Because the dac is performing so well at a cost so low i dont feel i need to upgrade it at all, i am even afraid to change it and be deceived... It is a freench battery dac with a minimalist design, low noise level, TDA 1943 by  french designer Christophe Mariac, Starting Point System...

The only upgrade i am not afraid to do  now is my beloved Sansui AU 7700...

not the speakers which are the  top design of British designer  Mission Cyrus 781 which bass power are marvellous... And before i enjoyed the superioir Tannoy dual gold concentric....Then....

Anyway the possible upgrade wll cost me a lot more than the price of my beloved Sansui ... 100 bucks for the Sansui +recap price of 100 bucks by a more than honest repairman yes... I am lucky... compared to the low cost Sansui it will cost 6,000 bucks to buy a ZOTL.... 😁😊😂😊

I will not do it, not by self sontrol and abnegation or because it is too much money... I dreamed about the ZOLT Berning amplifier for a long time and i read about it...

I will not do it because i dont need it to enjoy music now thanks to acoustic well done...

Would  it  be an improvement to reach a higher "clarity" and accuracy of the timbre sound ?

Yes it would...

Is it a strong tentation to do this upgrade now? Not so much because even if inferior to the ZOTL my Sansui, i KNOW IT now, do the job very well even if it would be upgraded by the ZOTL... I know it because i enjoy a good timbre already and details thanks to ASCOUSTIC well done ... Acoustic put the Sansui on his best potential  level where i can stay and live with it...And at the same time i know what are is probable weakness compared to the ZOTL tech...Clarity...

But i am not frustrated at all with this konwledge...

Confirming then  by my experience that Acoustic well done exceed most upgrade in S.Q. powerful improvement... The Sansui is not transformed in a better amplifier for sure after acoustic, but i now can listen to ALL his qualities without feeling a lack on any count even accuracy or clarity.... But this is the factor that will be improved... Why ? Because all the other  factors matter less at the end and ayway the Sansui give a lot of them very well...

I am done upgrading for years now...

Then all audiophile dont chase their tail... I did not...

Acoustic is superior most of the times to any possible upgrade if your gear choices has been good choices to begin with for sure...

A lot of us have come across a number of procedures and formulas about speaker positioning that rely on subjective listening. My experience is that listener position alters the LF response over speaker position at ratio of about 3:1 measured distance from the front wall. I would highly encourage people to make room measurements to understand what is happening. It more precise and efficient than listening alone, although certainly not a total substitute. I am not interested in judging what works for other people, but clearly setup is THE cheapest way to maximize value.