I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.


I just can't clear my head of this. I don't want to start a measurements vs listening war and I'd appreciate it if you guys don't, but I bought a Rogue Sphinx V3 as some of you may remember and have been enjoying it quite a bit. So, I head over to AVS and read Amir's review and he just rips it apart. But that's OK, measurements are measurements, that is not what bugs me. I learned in the early 70s that distortion numbers, etc, may not be that important to me. Then I read that he didn't even bother listening to the darn thing. That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements? Help me package that so I can at least understand what they are thinking without dismissing them completely as a bunch of mislead sheep. 

128x128russ69

That quote you made from Stereophile is from the 2014 review not what ASR reviewed.

The first quote is the V1 version which supports the second quote for the V3 version. Both experts measured the Spinx V3 and I think got comparable results.

Stereophile tests appear to show high noise one phono input...

Yes, it is highlighted that the MM phono output was noisy. The MC output was not. Probably still has more channel separation and dynamic range than the record you are playing. 

Stereophile tests appear to show ... high power supply noise...

Also mentioned but it's 80 and 90 db down, you are not going to hear it. 

... and does not meet 4 ohm power spec. 

Rogue does not specify a 4ohm power spec. They say 100wpc minimum and don't specify the impedance. Atkinson measured 96watts at 8 ohms and 150watts at 4 ohms. You wont miss the 4db since it would take 200 watts to raise the sound level 3db.  

This is why you need to listen to gear. A few db may be important or they may not depending on what you are measuring. With noise levels down 80 and 90 db, you are not going to hear it. Sure 120 db is better but it's only a better measurement number not something that will ruin playback. That's why Atkinson explains what the numbers mean and their effect on sound quality. ASR skips that step. 

This this ridiculous because all outputs should be measured at their normal output levels, not attenuated.

As a measurement standard most amps are measured at full power. That is where they perform the best in most cases. Although we don't listen at full volume, the measurements would make more sense if they were at a realistic level but you can't compare amps if you are setting output to some arbitrary level. 

Also mentioned but it's 80 and 90 db down, you are not going to hear it. 

 

Those are peaks. The total noise level from the power supply would be much higher. In 2022 that does not seem acceptable. Is it audible? I expect at high volume in quiet passages it may be.

Now let's play devil's advocate. When it suits you you will claim -80db is not audible but if a cable was tested and it showed nothing at greater than -90db and Amir said that's totally inaudible then a 100 audiophiles on this site would be losing their minds. You can selectively accept the measurements you want especially when they are measuring the same thing.

 

 I noted that ASR seems to measure THD from very low power to high power at several frequencies but it does not seem to be consistent for all products

Now let’s play devil’s advocate. When it suits you you will claim -80db is not audible but if a cable was tested and it showed nothing at greater than -90db and Amir said that’s totally inaudible then a 100 audiophiles on this site would be losing their minds. You can selectively accept the measurements you want especially when they are measuring the same thing.

 

How do you measure in DB the addition of a piece of shungite+copper+graphene on my main comnputer  router? It is my homemade "golden plate"...Or on  the wall socket?

😁😊

These debates are ridiculous not because "measuring tools fetichists" are wrong, they are not even wrong... Like the "gear tasting fetichists" who at least use their ears...

 

The only meaningful measures in audio are CORRELATED with a listening impressions, it is called psycho-acoutic science...

The rest is only a debate beween Amir and the designer of a Dac for example about a RESTRICTED set of measures and ABOUT THE  DESIGN CONCEPTION  not about his quality sound ...

Because a Dac could have  a sound PERFORMANCE only in a specific room with specific ears and specific system...

 And only acoustic and psycho-acoustic can USE the dac design in real time listening...

 

 

 

When it suits you you will claim -80db is not audible... I expect at high volume in quiet passages it may be...

You would be totally wrong. If I heard any noise I would freak out. All my gear is dead quiet, I work hard to make sure it is. If it’s not dead quiet it gets repaired or returned. I hear zero noise from my Sphinx V3. 80 db were the peaks at certain low frequencies (Class D issues), but most of the noise was minus 100 db.

Those are peaks.

Yes, that is db down, it gets better from there.