@russ69 I didn't say the measurements have to be great, they can just be good. Good is more than acceptable.
I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.
I just can't clear my head of this. I don't want to start a measurements vs listening war and I'd appreciate it if you guys don't, but I bought a Rogue Sphinx V3 as some of you may remember and have been enjoying it quite a bit. So, I head over to AVS and read Amir's review and he just rips it apart. But that's OK, measurements are measurements, that is not what bugs me. I learned in the early 70s that distortion numbers, etc, may not be that important to me. Then I read that he didn't even bother listening to the darn thing. That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements? Help me package that so I can at least understand what they are thinking without dismissing them completely as a bunch of mislead sheep.
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The problem was not Amir himself but few of his zealots disciples... Because the notion of a measured distortion in engineering design is not the same than in acoustic... Why ? Because acoustician test a subjective response from a musician for example in a timbre experiment perception test...harmonics here means something very different than " harmonics" in engineering standard measures... And the engineer read a dial and his "distortion" THD is a way more simplistic concept of what a distortion do to the subjective impressions and why....It is an engineering % about a relation between input and ouput...Not the way sound affect humans ears... Electronic Engineering is SUBORDINATED to psycho-acoustic research or a tool for it not the reverse ... Save when the psycho-acoustic research is done and applied.... Timbre perception is not reducible to a simplistic concept of the spectrum for example....but the engineer most of the times work with this simplistic concept which is well enough for his design trade-off practice anway ... There is exception but they are exceptional designer not a crowd of them ...All audio products are not ultra high end... 😁😊
Exactly....Some designer like atmasphere know....
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It needs to be more than just low distortion at 20KHz although that certainly does not hurt. What is important is four things; if these four things are met, the amp will be easy to listen to, regardless of its technology: 1) the distortion will be consistent at all frequencies- the same at 100Hz, 1KHz and 10KHz. 2) the distortion spectra at 1 Watt will be such that the higher ordered harmonics will not be audible- for whatever reason. 3) The distortion spectra at 6dB below full power will also prevent higher ordered harmonics being audible. 4) IMD is well controlled. These things sound simple and easy but they can be quite tricky! Most amps fail them outright- and sound bright and harsh as a result, even though they 'measure well' otherwise. The real problem isn't that they measure well, its that the proper measurements aren't made at all! |
Many amplifiers on tested on Stereophile and ASR meet those criteria @atmasphere . By low, I don't mean only low at 20KHz, but low at all frequencies, <<0.01% at all frequencies. I don't think distortion has any particular meaning at >10KHz as the distortion is >20KHz. I assume the measurements are using an extended bandwidth beyond human hearing. ASR shows distortion from low to high power at a range of frequencies in their reviews. |
The absolute truth in my opinion. Current test bench measurements are inadequate. It makes no sense to measure good and yet sound poorly. What good are measurements such as these? There are numerous audio components that don’t measure particularly well yet sound fabulous. Ralph is correct in that what really matters in determining good sound quality is not being done currently with measuring instruments. I do believe at some future point this dilemma will be properly solved. It sure is not the case now. I guess for some there’s a degree of reassurance or peace of mind with current methods of audio component bench testing. As it stands presently the ears are far more reliable and trustworthy in judging audio product sound quality. Charles |
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