If it sounds more like a live performance, but isn't accurate by measurement standards, then what would be the point of accuracy if it doesn't sound closer to a live performance.
I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.
I just can't clear my head of this. I don't want to start a measurements vs listening war and I'd appreciate it if you guys don't, but I bought a Rogue Sphinx V3 as some of you may remember and have been enjoying it quite a bit. So, I head over to AVS and read Amir's review and he just rips it apart. But that's OK, measurements are measurements, that is not what bugs me. I learned in the early 70s that distortion numbers, etc, may not be that important to me. Then I read that he didn't even bother listening to the darn thing. That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements? Help me package that so I can at least understand what they are thinking without dismissing them completely as a bunch of mislead sheep.
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Great post! I will only add that we cannot know how to measure and how to interpret these measures correctly if we dont have a correct model of human hearing at the end...... That was the subject of my last 3 posts here.... With some interesting scientific articles about hearing ....
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@realworldaudio , I am not an EE, but my I have an advanced physics degree, and have worked in semiconductors, batteries, and development and measurement of those a long time. I have gotten pretty good with metrology out of necessity. Hence I don’t claim to be an expert, but I think I have a good grasp of what is being communicated in the measurements:
Stereophile specifically mentions they use for some of their tests a synthetic speaker load that models a real world speaker. This appears to negate some of the above statement. Testing into 4 ohm is standard. Testing in 2 ohms seems common. This will provide insight into more reactive loads. Testing with worse case synthetic loads is common and harsher than real world conditions. For characterizing semiconductor devices we test with synthetic loads to find the "corners" for stability.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by subtractive distortion. Are you stating that the interaction of a particular amplifier with a particular speaker may result in lower overall distortion? This seems possible. I will note that @atmasphere who seems to know his stuff stated most (not all) speakers are designed to be driven with a voltage source which may negate the advantage you may perceive for most listeners. This would be dependent exclusively on the load (speaker) so I don’t see how this could be tested.
This is purely false. Read any of the more recent reviews on ASR. THD and SINAD is tested from very low power to very high power across a range of frequencies from I think 20Hz to 15KHz. I am too lazy to go verify the exact frequencies used.
This is also purely false. ASR tests with a 32 tone IM signal. This is 32 tones from low frequency to high frequency. That would result in a signal that is complex and varying in amplitude as the frequencies add together.
I will not call this false, but I think you are not interpreting what the other measurements will accomplish. The 32 tone IM signal will vary from large to small. The THD stimulation also transitions from a very small level to very large. If the measurement is -100db in both cases then that would also be the case for the special condition you are theorizing. What may be missing is testing if the distortion rises under continued heavy load causing device heating. I do not know if that is a valid real world condition. I have listened to Nelson Pass. He strikes me as very much a heavy measurements guy. He may tune intentional artifacts in his designs, but what I have read and what I have been on Youtube indicates he is very much measurement oriented.
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@realworldaudio Thank you for stating what should be obvious. Of course some believe we've already discovered all there is to be discovered. Why not just shut down any research into audio reproduction and human sensory perception, we already have all the measurement protocols and tools needed to prove absolutes, and differences in individual human sensory perceptivity is of no concern.
Watch out for the audio authoritarians, they'll be sure no Toto can open the curtain.
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Are you any better @sns , insisting on magic because you won't accept your own infallible and easily influenced hearing? I replied to @realworldaudio's post, objectively, with no idea or care for his qualifications. Some of the things he said are wrong. Some of the things he says seem relevant, and some are likely outside the scope or even capability of any viable test regimen but does not make them irrelevant, just impractical. |
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