@deludedaudiophile said: Are you familiar with the term hypocrite? What were the last 25 or so paragraphs you posted? Who were you trying to save.
My intent was never to try to “save” anyone; let alone someone from themselves and their purchasing decisions, quite the opposite. My post was bemoaning the activist, objectivist and their push to dismiss or purchase equipment based solely on their measurements. But of course I have no problems with measurements being part of the purchase decision equation and measurements are definitely important when treating a room. Hell, I have owned a Rat Shack analog meter before they were digital and when Radio Shack still existed.🙂
As I said, I have no qualms with objective, scientific, electrical engineering, acoustics and physics discussions as they relate to the audio hobby, or objective discussions and measurements in general; although I rarely frequent audio forums for those. But I do have qualms with the measurement objectivist evangelist proselytizing their seemingly new found religion.
The measurement objectivist activist seems to be a fairly recent phenomena in the audio forums I frequent. Perhaps the holy church of the god of measurement is growing its numbers and is sending out evangelists to convert the unworthy, unwashed heathen subjectivists. I’m happy that the reverse isn’t the case.
I have no need to tell anyone what they should do in regard to equipment selection. I will give advice from my experience and knowledge. But I understand that what I like or have found to be acceptable, will not be so for all; nor do I expect it to be; quite unlike the measurement objectivist activist, who has the “facts” and if you doubt them…well I have heard enough about science compliers/deniers in general, to last 10 lifetimes!
Until the last decade or so, we forum members blithely and happily went along telling each other how we felt about a new component, an acoustic modification, a tweak, or how we felt about the music we were listening. Sure, there was misinformation, snake oil, hokum, or honest mistakes etc. When any information is being exchanged, overt, covert and unknowing misinformation and dis-information is expected and either kept, or thrown to side as we encounter it. If not, we learn by our mistakes and move on.
We are confronted with those sorts of informational misfits and puffery daily from all directions, not just audio. However then, galloping in, came the measurement cavalry. Who seemingly just discovered that there were these potential pitfalls and hazards. Wow, imagine that!?! With the god of measurement objectivism on their side, the cavalry righteously informed us of the scientific method and all of the psychological methods we supposedly had been using to delude ourselves. Thanks, but no thanks for the information! I was educated in the scientific method and understand all we humans do to psychologically delude ourselves into believing what we want. I don’t need, or want the measurement objectivist activist cavalry coming in to save me from myself, under the auspices of preventing me from throwing my hard- earned money away on a poorly measuring component!
The remarks I made previously in this thread, were an attempt to understand what seems to be the activist motivation of many objectivists and their: my measurements are god perspective and they should also be yours, because…well, you can’t argue with the god of objective measurements! To think otherwise, you must have confirmational bias, don't understand the placebo effect, don't believe or defer to double-blind experiments, blah, blah, blah. Objectivists obviously have every right to believe what they believe. But what’s the point of their measurement crusading zeal directed at a subjective hobby and on a forum such as this?
If anyone chooses to select equipment based solely on measurable criteria or any other data that seems important to them, I say have at it. All should do likewise.
All are welcome to buy measurably defective equipment or otherwise. There is no need to point that out. Get your rocks off, by getting your rocks off; not by measurement proselytizing to the unwashed masses and disbelievers, as if they don’t have a clue.
@deludedaudiophile: You should have a chat with the acoustics engineer who designed and tuned my room. I believe the term he would use is poppycock. He does not think soundstage and imaging is at all intangible and many others I talked to do not either. Perhaps that comes from your lack of knowledge that others do not lack?
You should have a chat with the professional calibrator who setup the projector in my home theater. He said blah...blah...blah and “many others” agree.
Both your acoustic engineer and my video calibrator could well be accurate in their pronouncements and assessments. That doesn't mean that the results of their efforts are preferable, or without rebuttal. I may prefer sonic or visual settings to be skewed from what the measurer, or the measurement device(s) suggest. Or their devices may be flawed, my vision or hearing may be, or their observations and conclusions may also be flawed, or not (as it were).
As the room owners you and I are the final arbiters of what we prefer -- not the professionals and certainly not the measurements, unless we want them to be!
As far as poppycock goes, and “everyone” does, or does not concur: who cares? I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. You're welcome to prefer what you do and I assume you would agree, that I am welcome to do likewise; regardless of some sort of accurate, inaccurate, or questionable objective measurements, or the advice of experts in their respective fields.
My 2-channel audio room is for my relaxation and entertainment. I needn’t an expert involved to tell me what I should like, or prefer. However, I definitely have found that an aged distilled adult beverage positively helps.🙂 But, you may need or prefer a professionals hand holding and advice to be satisfied and that’s you and of course, I’m fine with that. Why should I not be? However, I don’t need or want someone to tell me what component sounds good, because it measures good and for me to think otherwise, is wrong headed and incorrect!
@deludedaudiophile: If you start with the assumption that other people could not possibly have the knowledge you lack then you are destined to repeat the mistakes they have long overcome.
I'm not sure where that comment emanated. I'm here to acquire and offer subjective knowledge gained from experience. But I obviously get to pick and choose what is acceptable and isn’t. Of course, I may be wrong according to some. But isn’t that always the case? My way is not remotely the right way for anyone, but me. Nevertheless, there was a long and torturous path to get there. But yet, I’m still constantly learning and trying to refrain from making mistakes, especially the same mistake twice. However, my mistakes are mine, especially when they affect no one else on this forum, or elsewhere.
How about you, do you have all the answers? How about your acoustic engineer(s), do they have all the answers? Or might other acoustic engineers agree to disagree, or have ancillary or divergent beliefs or thoughts – a tweak of this here, or there etc.? Line up a number, of any experts and there will be disagreement. Some disagreement may be subtle, other disagreements not so subtle. So much for the great and wise “everyone” you seem to banter about, as if that word has meaning?
@deludedaudiophile: There is enough animosity on both sides but not accepting the knowledge or experience of either makes little sense.
I’m uncertain what knowledge is being discussed or is accepted or is unaccepted. I have no animosity for those fixated on equipment measurements to make purchasing decisions. Nor do I wish to tell them what to do or that they may be suffering from delusional auditory biases compounded by staring at measurement matrices for hours on end etc. So yes, I do have animosity for their overt and pronounced prostalizing, however.
Measurement Objectivists Activists: have at it, by all means make equipment selections based on objective measures, or as you see fit. As such, measurement objectivists, should not object or have animosity against folks that manufacture or select equipment that do NOT meet the measurement criteria they value and if they do, what is the point of pointing it out. You go your way and I will go mine, no harm, no foul.
@deludedaudiophile: On a side note, the most revered headphones, very very expensive Sennheisers ($30K) have very very low distortion. They measure about as perfect as possible. Everyone who hears them raves. What can we learn from that?
Whoo hoo, “everyone” that hears them raves! Consequently, I’m sure all other headphone manufacturers have thrown in the towel and conceded defeat. The best are indeed, measurably the best! I'm happy for Sennheiser's feat and that their headphones have “raves” by "everyone" that hears them.
There’s that “everyone” word again. It may have meaning to you; it has none to me! Feel better now that “everyone” is in agreement?
Throughout history there have been times when “everyone” has been in agreement about issues that later were found to be inaccurate, immoral, unethical and heinous, among but a few adjectives. But I suppose your use of “everyone” now as if it has meaning, is unquestionably accurate and without dissent or debate! There you have it, use “everyone” and the questioning ends, the subject is settled!
Speaking of "everyone", there were posts on this site by an individual referencing a specific cable brand and citing the continuous rave reviews “everyone” in the reviewing industry provided, as if “everyone” and their findings were meaningful and indisputable. What a load of dung. My “everyone” will see and raise your “everyone”. Now, who is the hypocrite?
Lastly, the pure equipment objectivist and subjectivist will always disagree. Neither should have the need or desire to convince each other that their equipment purchasing decisions are the wrong way or the right way. As long as the system owner is happy, there is no purely right or wrong decision in a subjective hobby such as this.
Hence, as I previously mentioned, I relished the fact that the AudioPhileStyle.com forum peeled off the purely objective discussions into an “Objective-Fi” Forum, “the space for scientific / objective audio discussions”. There is obviously some overlap between the two. But activism from either camp should be dissuaded and moved into their respective domains for the civility and sanity of everyone involved.