I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.

Great post  which express my own opinion too...

I haven’t noticed any participant on this thread rejecting scientific data, who’s doing that? I would acknowledge that there are posters (including myself) who believe reliance on measurement is no substitution for listening. Ralph has eloquently pointed out that relevant measurements are rarely utilized and presented even though they’re available.

Speaking of scientific data rejection, why are some so seemingly narrow minded and dismissive of the research and information regarding the fascinating study of ear-brain processing of interpreting sound? Too complex to bother with? Science demands curiosity, humbleness and an open mind. Probably a lot simpler and reassuring to just cite data from a sheet of paper.

The effort to delve into the science of human hearing may just be too daunting for some, so it’s easily ignored.

Charles

This problem of audiophiles living their lives according to how things were 30-40 years ago has caused a lot of suffering (and to be clear, when people have made up stories about life and life does not agree with those stories, that is the source of all human suffering). Back then, if the manufacturer, distributor or dealer's lips were moving, he was lying 

I go back to the 60s, thank you very much. I'm not sure where you are shopping but there is no incentive to have a disappointed customer unless you are selling speakers out the back of a white van. A good dealer will help you on your journey through the maze of possible choices. You probably need to shop at better stores if you think you are being lied to and being sold "snake oil".  

Who dismissed science of how we hear? The plascidity of the brain? Certainly not me. For instance do speakers " break in" or does our brain adapt to the sound of the speaker room interaction. Looking at the components of a passive speaker there’s very little that would benefit from break in of more than a few minutes to a few hours but it can take our brain a few days or weeks to adjust to a change. I agree there are far to many who reject science not only of how things work but of how we work as well.

@atmasphere  If you read that post again, that was not a posit, rather a question? I can't make that posit without having heard the components I speak of. You posit they'll all sound the same,  apparently, you trust the measurements over human sensory perception. This in a nutshell, speaks to difference between O and S, I need to listen, O's don't.

As Charles previously stated, and I stated in previous post, we don't deny science and find it useful. We also don't deny the validity of our individual sensory perceptions for our OWN choices.

It has never been my intention to present my observations, listening experiences as some objectively verifiable truth. They are presented as an obvious subjectivist, my system and preferences there for all to see. And based on my observations the vast majority of posts here follow this pattern. I don't see much if any misrepresentation in posts that listener's experiences are shaped by their preferences.

I presume vast majority of visitors and contributors to this forum understand it's greatly dominated by subjectivists. ASR and some of diy forums, objectivists. I haven't dismissed ASR in any of my posts, and have in fact used them to some extent in purchasing decisions. And they do present their listening impressions on that forum, at least some there attach some validity to their sensory perceptions. I am in fact a hybrid of O and S for initial purchase decsions,  however, I do attach validity to my sense perceptions for long term ownership.

I go back to the 60s, thank you very much. I'm not sure where you are shopping but there is no incentive to have a disappointed customer unless you are selling speakers out the back of a white van. A good dealer will help you on your journey through the maze of possible choices. You probably need to shop at better stores if you think you are being lied to and being sold "snake oil".

We need ways to determine if a dealer, manufacturer or salesman’s claims are factual, semi factual or total B.S. that is wittingly or unwittingly fabricated.

We can try doing that in our houses post facto after purchase, or using some measurements a priori.

I like to do as much of that in an a priori fashion as possible.

And realistically the dealer, and more to the point… salesmen, have a low track record for trustworthiness. Whether it is used cars or stereo gear, if they were EE types, or automotive engineers or mechanics, then they would be making things, or fixing things… not selling things.

I like bartenders and baristas as much as the next fellow... maybe more so…
But striving actors and philosophy majors are always interesting to talk to.
However I would not be taking their advice on technical matters, nor on medicine, nor on world politics.

We seem to want to trust stereo salespeople perhaps more than they should be trusted.

I set the bar at whether they can speak to a graph, or explain in some technical way why piece is worthwhile, and when they resort to magic and synergy, I pretty much put the shields up and engage engines to leave.