objective vs. subjective rabbit hole


There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

128x128snilf

@snilf

Ah I see.

I was thrown by your talking about the contrast one finds in forums like this between the appeal to the objective vs the subjective, and that you felt you were identifying a "crux" of the matter. My view is that this is not the "crux" of the contrast between the two approaches (it is the epistemic divide I argued for).

However, if I understand your clarification, we are to presume (at least for sake of argument) those subjective preferences that are veridical - that true sonic differences were heard, resulting in the impressions and preferences.

So for instance if we take two speakers that measure quite differently, with audible consequences for their character, then we can imagine a subjective approach vetting the design simply based on one’s subjective impression, vs an objective approach vetting the design on measurements, data etc.

I still think this needs some conceptual clarity. If we are ONLY talking about "preference" then, yeah, so what if you like X. Doesn’t mean I’ll like X. That’s kind of obvious and I can’t imagine anyone thinking this is really the "crux" of any matter here. Preferences differ, we all know that - I don’t think anyone takes mere preference as informative about how gear performs. The exchanges that actually seek to be INFORMATIVE here, including from "subjectivists," are an exchange of subjective IMPRESSIONS and descriptions of gear. So I have to presume we are talking about the more interesting question of whether purely subjective IMPRESSIONS or descriptions - "I liked X speaker because it has THESE characteristics...." can be informative.

Ok, then, as someone with a foot in both worlds I’ll attempt an answer.

I’m an "objectivist" in the epistemic sense I described earlier. I do not take my subjective impressions to be the absolute authority, delivering unvarnished Truth about the performance of audio gear. On the other hand, I sometimes don’t care that much about measurements and prefer ultimately to hear a component (speakers especially) for myself. To be consistent I scale my claims to the evidence I can present. If I think I hear differences between two different speaker designs, the plausibility that I’m actually hearing different sonic characteristics is very high, so my suspicion of my subjective impressions won’t be undercutting.

If I think I hear a difference between, say, a tube amp and a solid state amp, that too is technically plausible...though not as sure (depending on the amp designs) as with the speakers. Hence I scale my confidence (and any claims) downward. If I think I hear a sonic difference between 2 well designed solid state amps, on technical grounds (given how low distortion would be with each amp), I’d scale my confidence level in my impression, and any claims I made based on that impression, well down (fully understanding any skepticism of the claims based soley on my subjective impression).

So I know how to play nice with the "objectivists" (which I often mingle with over on the ASR forum, for example). HOWEVER, I do find that the objectivist approach can start to become too dry, too reductive. Everything comes to us through subjectivity, and much of human interaction involves our attempt at describing "what it’s like," and we are often successful enough in this to arrive at useful intersubjective agreement.

When I listen to music through a sound system the amount of subjective details are so rich, they just aren’t adequately described or conscribed by something like "speaker has 3dB boost at 1k" or whatever. That’s a technical description...but a 3dB boost at 1K "sounds like" something - It changes the subjective experience, the sonic impression, of voices, certain instruments etc. It’s that "sounds like" character I’m interested in, and I love to exchange subjective impressions on "what things sound like."

So I place high value in exchanging notes with other audiophiles regarding our subjective impressions, and on (well written) subjective reviews. (Whereas these are much disparaged as unreliable or simply made up b.s. and imagination, by the "objectivists" on ASR).

Ok, so having said all that: I can’t necessarily tell YOU what YOU will accept as informative from my subjective descriptions. But I can tell you what I can get from careful subjective descriptions.

Over the years I’ve come to note how I respond to certain sonic characteristics - e.g. I seek a sense of "density" in the sonic images, of solid air-moving mass. I seek a sense of "organic warmth" where appropriate - voices sounding like flesh and blood, the wooden instruments having that recognizable woody timbre, reeds sounding "reedy" brass "brassy" as I recall those things. A "disappearing" act for the speaker with expansive soundstaging and precise imaging. A sense of presence and texture - the subtle texture that makes a bongo or bowed instrument sound "right there" rather than something encased in glazed amber, removed from me. Etc.

When I read a subjective review, or read the report of a well-spoken audiophile, and see that they notice and care about some of the same things I do...that they seem to "hear like me, care about what I care about," that makes me sit up and take notice.

And if for THEM the gear is ticking those boxes, that in of itself may be enough to make me feel it’s worth seeking out an audition. My confidence level increases once I’ve heard some products that these audiophiles have described, and found that, yes, the product DID have the salient characteristics I was looking for, as was described in the review. Paying attention like this has led me to some very satisfying gear, including purchases. (E.g. Michael Fremer’s original review of the Conrad Johnson Premier 12 amps I own is so bang on, in terms of describing what I hear, it’s eerie. I was also led to the Audio Physic Virgos early on via his review, which also sounded just as he described).

Another for-instance is having read Art Dudley on the Devore Fidelity O-series speakers. Some of the characteristics he cares about, and described hearing in the Devores matched some of what I was seeking. Several other reviews were consistent with Art’s. When I sought out the Devore speakers they did indeed have JUST the qualities described by Art, qualities I found immensely attractive. (In this case, a rich, full sound, that was also vivid and smooth in upper frequencies with immediacy and texture, along with a sense of dynamic ease an "life energy" to music through those speakers).

Another example for me are the Joseph Audio speakers. They don’t sound like the Devore speakers, but they do other things that I also love. In particular, a combination of clarity and relaxed warmth, a purity of tone that sounds incredibly grain-free, revealing the exactness of instrumental timbre. These exact qualities were described in virtually every Joseph Audio Pulsar (and Perspective) review I could find. The reviewers almost to a one NAILED the sonic descriptions of "how these speakers sound." And in that sense I find the reviews informative and useful.

I used to write reviews a long time ago and the most gratifying aspect was how many people wrote to me that they heard the item under review and that I’d described "exactly what it sounded like" to them. So the fact I have found sonic descriptions from some other audiophiles accurate, and some have found my own descriptions accurate to what they hear, gave me some optimism that purely subjective descriptions could be informative and of some use.

So, speaking to your challenge:  how can I convince you that I might have something informative to tell you simply based on my own subjective impressions and preferences? I think it’s up to you to make that connection. For instance, you could go through some of my thread where I do nutshell impressions of lots of speakers (as well as extensive impressions) and see if they seem to match anything you have heard. If so, you might start to grant some credence to my descriptions of gear you haven’t yet heard.

Here’s my thread:

 

 

i am not a subjectivist nor an objectivist.....Because this is a confused division by a confusing crowd...

 

By the way i like prof balanced post above ....

So I know how to play nice with the "objectivists" (which I often mingle with over on the ASR forum, for example). HOWEVER, I do find that the objectivist approach can start to become too dry, too reductive. Everything comes to us through subjectivity, and much of human interaction involves our attempt at describing "what it’s like," and we are often successful enough in this to arrive at useful intersubjective agreement.

 

It is very important to not confuse 2 things here:

The engineering aspect of the relation Subjective/objective correlation...

The psycho-acoustic aspect of this correlation...

The fact that some piece of gear, for example an amplifier, can be designed in a very well controlled way, in relation to human perceptive characteristical abilities, has been very well advocated and explained here by atmasphere... He say that all aspect of human perceptive qualitative impressions can be theoretically related to some protocols in the designing process itself, then by a precise set of measures... I dont have any reason to doubt it...He is a very competent designer and he even said that Alas! this optimal set of measures that can be used for a rightful evaluation of a piece of gear is not always there.... I dont doubt that either...

Then if we pick a piece of gear it is useful to consult or buy from a designer who knows what he speak about.... But in most case the customer is in the obligation to pick by listenings because all optimal and possible measures that will guide the choice are not there or even not used...


Then picking a piece of gear is sometimes a listening experiment event because there is no other choice... And anyway those able to interpret the right set of ELECTRCAL measures are not always around...(but keep in mind that electrical measure are not acoustical measures)


Then in this case, attributing a quality to a piece of gear, is explanabable objectively by the designer or by the subjective impression of the customer, and the two can and could be correlated if the customer impression is not an illusion or a deceptive impression...


But all change in audio experience are not a "color" associated to a piece of gear, merely subjectively, or objectively, or by their correlation...


There exist also the psycho-acoustic aspect of the objective/subjective correlation....

When a recording engineer take a PERSPECTIVE on an acoustic musical event, he practise his ART with a set of trade-off choices which will be conveyed by the analog/digital chain of the audio system with the least possible distortion from this CHOSEN informed acoustic perspective....The gear system ONLY convey the chosen information to the speakers/room... there is not a UNIQUE original event, but as many that there is listeners in the Hall or microphones...

What do we have here?
We have a chosen acoustic perspective of a lived event conveyed by the gear, in a digital or in an analog form, but which will be TRANSLATED in another acoustic perspective which is a specific small room with his own acoustic set of conditions...

Then It is not a small change which is subjectively and objectively analysed and interpreted here like the change associated with a piece of gear , but an enormous set of possible acoustic choices and changes which will affect the acoustic translation of the recording event in the room and by the room acoustic complexities...

There is NO REPRODUCTION here, like high fidelity marketing trumpet it, there is an acoustic TRANSLATION....In your room also like for the recording engineer there is a trade -off set of choices which are related to your gear choices and your listening history and acoustic set of controls or the lack of....

Electrical engineering accuracy is not synonym of acoustic accuracy...

Sound transparency is an engineering concept which do not have the same meaning as acoustic transparency... like engineering electrical accuracy is not acoustic accuracy....

Then in this debate promoting blind test, which is only a single tool among all other psycho-acoustic tool to separate impressions in three groups: positive biases, negative biases, and illusion, blind test is not always practical in a single case and is not meaningful anyway in the general case... Why?

Because subjective impression and subjective impression in psycho-acoustic condition must be correlated at the end and not merely separated by a blind test ...

Then all this debate subjective/objective is generally superficial and confuse the engineering concepts of sound with the psycho-acoustical concept and the acoustical concept of sound....

In a word: there is no reproduction of sound at the end but an acoustical translation...
The original lived musical event does not exist ideally to be reproduced, it is an imperfect acoustic perspective chosen by a recording engineer waiting to be translated acoustically in your room...

The recording engineer has his TASTE AND TAKE on the event and you have your own ACOUSTIC TAKE AND TASTE in your small room...
Reducing this translation to a reproduction problem between two pieces of gear, a dac and an amplifier is BESIDE the main problem...
Any piece of gear must be well design so as to be able to reproduce a signal or translate it from analog to digital or vice versa in an accurate engineering way....

But your listenings experiments in your room are acoustical and psycho-acoustical experience....


In conclusion :

Every audiophile must learn OBJECTIVELY by basic acoustic to control his impressions...

Every audio designer must learn psycho-acoustic to understand human SUBJECTIVE impressions and learn the way to control them by his design ....

Confusing these two different perspective is arguing in the wind...And entertaining useless agressive arguments between gear fetichist and electrical measures zealots...

IMHE whenever people of sound mind are presented with a truly excellent system they will all agree that it is excellent. The reference is live music. Can a system make you believe with your eyes shut that you are in front of a live band given a good recording? If it can not then you might have work to do and money to spend. The best systems can do this. Play Bela Fleck's My Bluegrass Heart. Are the musicians standing in front of you in real size? Bela is center right, the violinist is center left, bass is dead center and there is a guitarist far left and far right, standing right there. Close your eyes and you can see them. The violin is smooth as silk. Every string on Bela's banjo is present and accounted for. 

This does not take fancy wires or power conditioners or fancy stands for speakers or gunk to put on your connections. All it takes is good equipment mated correctly with proper management of acoustics and equalization. 

I would argue it takes only average equipment in a good room. Before I had all my new equipment in my listening room, I had our old home theatre system in there. Not a cheap system but not what many here would call audiophile. Everything worked. Imaging was perfect. Sound was "balanced". When the main system went in the biggest difference was clarity at higher volumes and better bass from the new subs. At low-mid volumes they were surprisingly similar.