Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

I don’t understand the rational foundations of the subjectivists here, if there are any.   As a disclaimer I admire Amir, ASR, and it’s many knowledgeable contributors. But I also like some components for extra-audio reasons that Amir would justly put on his reject list.

The subjectivists here seem to put great stock into human sensory perception, something that philosophers have been questioning for millennia. Sensory perception is highly fallible to say the least. When one puts a pencil in a glass of water it looks bent; we see mirages in the desert; amputees commonly feel the presence of the missing limb, etc., etc., etc. So along came science in an effort to establish deeper insights and establish some degree of objectivity. So knowing that our senses are so misleading how can the audio subjectivists rely solely on their hearing?  They also run the risk of encountering something akin to the Roshomon complex whereby a number of individuals have the same experience but interpret it in all different ways. Sometimes the subjectivists seem to be insisting that that pencil is really bent in that glass! Why would anyone reject science when, given the human condition, it’s all we have to attain some form of objectivity?

Given that the audio subjectivists are so skeptical of science, why do  they so readily believe wild and unsubstantiated claims concocted by manufacturers of all sorts of cables, power conditioners, power supplies, etc.? It appears that they believe in order to understand, thus putting the cart before the horse, which is a questionable methodology. 

Most of the subjectivists here, like the OP, are pleased with the components they own and that is very good. You like what you hear which is all anyone can ask. So what ASR says about your stereo shouldn’t bother you. If I had some of these systems, all connected with the most expensive and exotic cables, I’d sit back and enjoy the music, and refrain from insulting Amir, ASR, and most of all science.
 

rudyb

People may hear a difference between power cords, even though it can’t be measured. So what? If someone likes it more, than that’s a given.

That confuses the issue.  You've just assumed that people ARE hearing real sonic differences between power cords.  But that is under dispute for good reason.  It's a doubtful proposition based on how power cords/electricity/most audio gear actually works.  Most electronic engineers - the ones who are not trying to sell you those products - will explain that.  And the few who DO believe inevitably have only anecdotes for the claim.

Why does this matter?

It matters to anyone who cares about the truth, and who wants to understand how gear actually works.   Why in the world wouldn't that be worthwhile?  Knowing how things work helps an engineer meet his design goals without unnecessary rabbit holes.  Knowing what type of gear or tweak is likely to make a sonic difference helps someone spend their money more wisely.   I am VERY happy to have the information being made available by folks like Amir (and others over the years).

None of this forces anyone to care.  You don't have to avail yourself of such information.  No problem.  But there are good reasons other people have for wanting to know whether things like power cords actually alter the music signals.

And to get to the bottom of such issues, you have to account for common bias effects in the process.

Scientific measurements can deduct a certain device measures better than another, and listening tests can deduct a person likes a certain sound more than another. These are two entirely different things, and both can live perfectly together.

Saying objective data and subjective impressions are entirely different things is like a diabetic saying "Look, the way I may be feeling, tired, peeing a lot etc is one thing.  Measurements of blood sugar is another.  These are entirely different things!"

Well...if you want to remain in ignorance about the correspondence between your measured blood sugar and your symptoms that's up to you.  But, no, they are not entirely different things.  The correlation between blood sugar measurements and diabetes/subjective symptoms, has been studied.

Likewise, there has been plenty of study correlating measurements of sound to their subjective effects for most people.  If that weren't the case we wouldn't have stereo, surround sound, audio codecs, reverb and other plug-ins for professional sound etc.  And the subjective effects of various measurable parameters in loudspeaker designs have been studied.   As have human hearing thresholds in regards to levels of signals or distortions we can hear.

tantejuut

Don’t tell me what I hear or can’t hear, based on "whatever".

So if an audiologist explains that you, like most humans, can't hear frequencies well above 20 kHz, are you going to dispute that?

If you had an audiogram and the audiologist explains you've lost some hearing at certain frequencies, and you can't hear over 15 kHZ (or whatever the results are)...would you object "Who are YOU mr. 'expert' to try to tell ME what I can hear or not??"

Can I presume you wouldn't be that obdurate?

The question is, then, why your back is so up if someone with relevant technical knowledge tries to impart some of that knowledge (with both theory and tests demonstrating the theory)?

Some people don’t like exploration and discussion.

That's an ironic statement following your saying you don't want anyone telling you what you can and can't hear 'based on whatever.'   THAT sounds like someone not open to learning.

Has it crossed your mind that maybe...just as your audiologist is informed about how human hearing works...Amir may actually be right about many of these things?

Don't let your ego get in the way of possibly learning something.

I just revisited another older thread on ASR where someone posted the measurements of the Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers.

The general response to the measurements by the ASR crowd in that thread was "meh, not bad, not great, look at these problems...over-priced."

This is similar to the response to the Devore speakers I mentioned earlier.

If I’d used enthusiasms of the ASR members as my guide to speakers there’s no reason I ever would have pursued either the Devore or Joseph speakers. (And ended up with Genelec or KEF etc lauded in that forum).   And yet after a huge speaker audition binge they stood out head and shoulders as my favorite. I found each to be very special in their own way. And in fact I found the descriptions in subjective reviews absolutely NAILED the sonic characteristics I heard in those speakers. Which, again, is why I still can find worth in subjective reports not just measurements.

Keep in mind, that above is not to say "therefore measurements aren’t useful or don’t tell you anything" or that the ASR members were wrong in interpreting issues in the measurements that would be audible. But rather, there is the wider context about our individual goals and tastes.

So knowing that our senses are so misleading how can the audio subjectivists rely solely on their hearing? 

The bottom line in audio is how the system sounds. Some of us have multiple decades of experience putting systems together. If I sit down to listen, the only thing that is important is the sound coming out of the loudspeakers. I don't need to have my choices validated by data. Measurements are a semi-interesting side bar discussion at best.