Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@tantejuut

The problem I have is people telling me what I can not hear.

Again: do you have a problem with scientists who study human biology telling you what is or isn’t possible? The reason, for instance, scientists have sent up the Web telescope is to see things that they KNOW can not be seen from earth with the naked eye. Wouldn’t it be strange for someone to say "they don’t have to do that! They can’t tell ME what I can see or not!"

???

Therefore: Why are you not open to a suitable expert on a subject (in which you are not expert) explaining what you may, or may not, be able to hear? This stuff really has been studied! Just as the limits of human hearing in regards to frequency response has been studied, so have thresholds for distortion levels, dynamic range etc.

And that really does have consequences when we are talking about what type of distortions are likely in cables and how audible they are likely to be or not.

If I hear differences in cables, I want to learn what is happening. If other people tell me that it is impossible and I am delusional, I find that not the right attitude for investigating the parameters for what is causing that effect. (geometry, dielectrics, purity, etc...).

But then you really DON’T want to learn what is happening. That is:you are blocking off any answer you don’t like, especially one that would conclude you are wrong in what you thought you heard.

There are people who have good knowledge of electronics - what type of distortions are plausible or not, how to measure it, and also have good knowledge of the thresholds of audible distortion. Amir is one of them, but there are numerous others.

If you REALLY care about "learning what is going on" it may indeed entail that real audible differences are occurring in your cables. But it also MAY be the case no audible differences are occurring, for very well known technical reasons, and you REALLY MIGHT be mistaken in your perception. If you don’t allow for the latter possibility - one VERY well documented in science - then you really aren’t approaching this with an open mind keen to learn the truth.

@moto_man

As cryneanaudioriver pointed out: you really left science and engineering behind in your post because you have simply assumed (e.g. in the case of your Shunyata cable) that your perception is SO reliable that you just CAN’T be wrong, and that therefore if no technical theory or measurement can validate "What You Hear" then it MUST be tests that are wrong, not...ever....you!

THAT is the fundamental problem underlying most of the subjectivist/objectivist debate. The Utter Certainty many have in their own perception...which flies in the face of all we know and has been studied about the fallibility and liabilities of human bias and perception.

It seems either a case of flat out refusal to learn this due to maybe some ego-protection mechanism, because people wrongly feel they are being personally insulted if it’s dare suggested they are "hearing things." Or it’s a case of some people just not-knowing-what-they-don’t-know and so they just won’t accept any informed testimony that contradicts their self belief.

Which is too bad.

My son was involved in a large study for a peanut allergy treatment. It was double-blinded - neither we nor the researchers knew who was on the actual treatment or the placebo. This is STANDARD in such trials because of the well known influence of bias - people who know they are getting the treatment will often report it made them better (even if it didn’t) and visa versa. Wouldn’t it be strange for my son to have objected "How dare you insult me by suggesting I may be prone to imagining anything! I demand that you unblind this study. I can trust myself, why can’t you?"

That would just be a flat out misunderstanding of the nature of human bias, right?

And yet this is pretty much what one sees among many here: a flat rejection of the proposition they may actually be imagining differences, and a rejection of any way of coming to that conclusion. It’s a one way street: I KNOW I hear the difference, so the only answer I’m looking for is one that affirms that belief!

As I mentioned earlier:  I also felt very strongly I heard an "obvious" difference with a Shunyata cable in my system.  But I was open to the possibility of listener bias as well.  So I did a blind shoot out and when I didn't know which cable was which, there was NO detectable difference - my guesses were completely random.

Saved me a lot of money :-)

It's too bad more audiophiles haven't had such experiences.  It's an eye-opener.

@axo1989 No you are so wrong. ASR nope never, Darko never even frequent his site or YouTube as he reviews the cheap crap Amir does. 

Swing and a miss. 

Try again this is the only place I post at. WBF I just read as they have people who are real experts there. Not posers like ASR. 

BTW Juan Manuel Fangio II was an Icon in F1. My Grandfather was an engineer on the Alfa Romeo team in 1950 and 1951 working with Mr. Fangio. Juan one 5 F1 Championships. 

His Nephew Juan Manuel Fangio II (my moniker) was a very accomplished IMSA and AMLS driver. 

Keep fishing. 

You do know that these measurements came about from observation first, the measurements didn’t come before observation. The science will never further if the measurements stay in stagnation, the ear/brain is more complex than the standard measurements we use for audio.

Did you read what I wrote? Scientists continue to do testing on human hearing to explore limits but those limits change at most now by very small amounts. Scientists are doing that. Audio companies make claims with no basis. It is quite a different process.

You have a belief that our ear and brain have a complexity that cannot be tested by current measurements. That is your belief. I do not see Amir disputing that for speakers. Do you? He does and it appears almost all on the scientific side dispute that for many products such as the oft hated cables (accurately most cables). No one has proven them wrong that I can tell. Lots of beliefs but no proof.

If you REALLY care about "learning what is going on" it may indeed entail that real audible differences are occurring in your cables.

I absolutely am open to the possibility. However, without any valid proof, not belief, but proof, I will err on the side of what has been proven. I used to be convinced of the same thing people hear believe till I was "forced" to accept otherwise. I don’t think any of the detractors here have ever truly tested their beliefs. How can you claim to have strong convictions if you are unwilling to test them?

There does seem to be consensus on the engineering side that some cables can have audible effects. I don’t see black and white, but nuanced reasoned positions. I am not seeing that from competing beliefs.

@prof 

it is not about expertise nor a defensive reaction to scientific explanations. If I hear more detail, I hear more detail. Simple as that.  Calling that delusional is wrong. The assumption that I really don't want to learn is incorrect. I learn everyday. From diyaudio, Agon and ASR. I am an open minded engineer. Maybe iIt is difficult to accept that some people have better hearing skills. Other people have beter measuring skills.