Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)

@prof If you say (as loud as you can) that you do not hear difference between cables, I would suggest you that you try two very different ones, lets say Cardas and Nordost. After that, if you still cant hear no difference, I would call you a lucky guy and would say that you have just saved lots of money.

The ’problem’ with your perspective and the way you communicate (you in general sense,its not personal ) is that you are not doing the same with people who claim that they hear the difference. You demand ’proof’ or either offer ’explanations’ why this person perception cant be trusted. Why would we than read about ’anylizers’, blind tests,psychoacoustics, mass psychology, etc, all in favour to your biased perspective?

Now, if that is not ’snobbery’ than its plain rude and ill mannerd behaviour.

As for the Asr crowd, the prevalent notion there is same towards cables (no differences) tubes (they ’distort’ so cant be good), vinyl (cheap digital is way better) dacs (they all sound the same if the specs are ’right’) and so on... and anything that costs more than few hundred bucks is a scam...

Now, dont get me wrong. We are all aware that audio gear has obscene prices and that lots of it is simply not sounding very good and that there is lots of marketing bs. and that there are lots of people who are caring more about the brand or the price than about performance...but they (ASR folks) are going into extreme...and thats fine, for them, or anyone who shares such perspective...but try to write there that  you hear the difference between cables or that you have all tubed system and than tell me who is hostile or with whom you cant have discussion in a civil way?

Imho, this not the argument beetween two different types of opinion, but between two very different types of behaviour

@thespeakerdude 

Yep.

This is the strong bias that so many bring to these discussions.  They view their own opinions on how to evaluate gear as the default - e.g. "The Only Way To Truly Evaluate Gear Is By Listening To It, Like We Do"  and make all sorts of claims based on their viewpoint. 

The fact that view might be opposed to another audiophile's approach here doesn't bother them.  But as soon as an alternative opinion or approach is voiced, it's greeted as some form of heresy or dogmatism or harassment.   It's only seen as a one-way street.

This is what bias and dogmatism do to one's perception.

Personally I'm always happy to discuss any point of view in audio.  If someone thinks I'm wrong it's not a personal attack.  We can (or should be able to) discuss the arguments and evidence for why we hold a viewpoint.

little less conversation...

a little more listening to audio systems, please

All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me
A little more bite and a little less bark
A little less fight and a little more spark…

only measurements and we're left in the dark

What ever happened to high Fidelity cables? That guy all of a sudden just shut his doors and stop making product. Nobody has stepped in to fill his void. I wonder why? He probably had one of the best sales pitches out there for Trine his cables. I really wonder if the magnets made a difference. I’m skeptical and he was the only one that I considered trying. I spoke to him on the phone one day and he wanted me to buy used sad that he had that was near the top of his offerings. I think he wanted to thousand dollars for the cable  But would not take them back if I didn’t like them. It was either I took the deal with no return or no deal. That in itself made me skeptical so I didn’t do it. I really wonder why nobody has started making cables with magnets, now that he’s out of business . 

alexatpos,

Again, it’s clear that you have a bias operating that is causing you to place a very negative spin on someone else’s perspective. You are seeing "sins" that are not there.

First, I have not "demanded" you do anything.

I have given my justification for how I personally approach claims about audio gear. Yes, some of the justification entails my not simply believing everything you or any other audiophile claims to hear, because I’m aware of the problem of all too human bias in our perception. But why would any mature adult see that as "rude?"

First of all: do you think all opinions, claims and viewpoints are equally likely and justified? Surely that can’t be, right? If I have the opinion the earth is flat...do you think it is wrong..."ill mannered" even to give reasons why that belief is likely in error?

If someone claims to see X-rays, should that be greeted as equally probable? If someone points out why that is extremely unlikely, why should any reasonable adult greet that as "ill mannered" rather than "trying to be informative?"

Why would we have a strange "anything goes, all things are equally probable on anyone’s opinion" in high end audio? That doesn’t make sense, right?

So if an audiophile is saying "I hear a difference between my expensive USB cable and a properly functioning off-the-shelf USB cable"...someone skeptical of that idea would have to explain WHY they are skeptical. That would include appeal to the nature of how USB/digital signals work and why such claims are unlikely, and also to scientific facts about how our biases can influence our perception, to "perceive" things that aren’t there.

If you take such arguments as being out of bounds and "ill mannered" - because they dare to question the ideas of another audiophile - then you are practicing a religious-like dogmatism, a sort of "questioning anyone's personal view or claimed experience is heresy and not to be countenanced here!"

Why be like that?

My son was involved in a study for a new allergy treatment. It was double blinded placebo controlled. We weren’t allowed to know if he was recieving the active ingrediant or the placebo. Why? Because bias effects - imagining side effects, misinterpreting things etc - are well known variables that need to be controlled for.

Would it have been mature of us to say "How DARE you challenge OUR ability to know what we are experiencing! Your lack of trust is INSULTING!"

That would be just a pure misunderstanding of the real problem the study is designed to address, right?

Yet this is just the type of behavior one often sees here lest anyone voice some skepticism which also has some basis on the facts we really can imagine differences and misperceive things, in audio as anywhere else. It’s greeted, as you are greeting it, as if it’s "rude" and some personal attack.

I’m trying to get you to see this bias because it would be much more fruitful for discussions here if you - and others - stop interpreting any challenge to what you believe, even strongly, as an attack or "rude." It really is that type of reaction that sets these discussions off course. It starts with actually admitting "I Could Be Wrong." Which is always my own assumption and why I’m open to any discussion about why I could be wrong.