Sound Stage and Imaging


I love speakers who 'paint a big picture' (I am literally closing my eyes and trying to SEE a picture). Therefore I THINK I like to see IMAGING and BIG SOUND STAGE. And also like DYNAMICS.

Being frugal (just not willing to spent audiophile level money on it), I love to persuit 'bang for buck' solutions in general.

With above goals in mind for a speaker: what hits the marks in the low fi (audiphile scale) $2k (used or new) budget range. (I have 2 setups: one HUGE room, one 20x20).

kraftwerkturbo

ADS "or pair of ADS L2020s, (which will fill your huge room) and / or ADS L1530s or L1230s. ": can't even find a PHOTO online of ADS L2020. The mid size LDS (L880 etc) look nice (I do like dome midrange, have a pair of Infinity Quantum 2 in parts in the basement, never heard them (no time to go over them, redo xovers). 

Can someone linke to ADS L2020?

Also as far as imiging is concerned: aren't the single speaker Kef 150 also known to produce excellent image (maybe not a wide soundstage, and may not 'sound' as nice as otheres (or may concerns, not enough AREA to 'fill' the big room, but maybe enough for the small 20x20?). 

@kraftwerkturbo 

You want Magnepan 3.7i or better. I do not like Martin Logan ESLs. The curved panel is a problem for any number of reasons. Sound Labs makes a much better ESL and you can get them in 8 or 9 foot tall versions which will fit to most ceilings forming line sources down to 1 Hz!

Speaker placement depends on the room. You need to put sound absorption at every first reflection point.

An excellent modern LS3 5A is the Harbeth P3. I recently set up a system with them crossing to subwoofers at 100 Hz. As we say in America, they kick ass!

The best imaging is very hard to achieve. It is impossible in some rooms. The speakers have to be in symmetrical identical environments and have to have identical frequency response curves from 100 Hz to 12 kHz. This is difficult to achieve without digital signal processing. There can not be any serious phase aberrations and all drivers have to be time aligned. Full range loudspeakers with subwoofers are the best way to achieve this. The fewer analog crosses the better. Digital crossovers are better but rare. There is only one preamp that has them and that is the DEQX Pre 8. There are commercial dBx DriveRacks that could easily be used in a home system. Sanders uses one with his Model 10 loudspeaker.

Coming up with an entirely analog system that images at the state of the art is a matter of sheer luck. I use to sell and install systems in a previous life and I have heard only two such systems do it. It also requires the right live recordings. With studio recordings image "depth" is a matter of how much echo is applied. I view studio recordings as a different form of art, fun in it's own right, surrealistic. 

If the gear system dont present synergy problem between the pieces to begin with ...

If you can control the room acoustic timing of the directed and reflected waves and some control of the pressure zone distribution with a good ratio between absorption,reflection and diffusion...

If you control vibrations/resonance of the speakers...

Your system will create a relatively good imaging and a soundstage out of the speakers plane ...

If you can add the crosstalk filters of The BACCH system it will improve a lot because the problems of ALL STEREO SYSTEMS at any price is the crosstalk effect on the working brain/ears to compute sound source width dimensions and position in your room..

In a word digital usual DSP is not enough at all, contrary of what says myjostyn, and the most ridiculous claim ever : imaging is NEVER achieved by luck or haphazard owners actions , but by acoustic good conditions and gear synergy for sure ...

I know because BEFORE implementing acoustics necessary condition with my speakers/room , and this two times with different room and different amplifiers and speakers, i did not have imaging well done neither a big soundstage encompassing the listener position ...

Digital DSP with room correction may help for sure, it is a tool, but cannot work replacing room acoustics nor control speakers vibrations/resonance, nor replace the ears specific measures And HRTF measures ...

The best imaging will be reach with a DSP as the BACCH filters , once the room is acoustically done , the speakers response and the inner ears will be measured and the HTRF measures done , once for all , and used to recreate the spatial qualities lost in any stereo installation at any price because of speakers crosstalk impeding perception...

Simple digital DSP will never replace the BACCH nor replace room acoustics nor the necessary ears and HTRF measures ...Period...

 

Imaging dont result from luck by trial and errors or haphazard actions or accidents....

By  what will appear as luck but is not,  some room content and geometry and topology and dimensions are easier to work with ...Thats all ....Because all room will need acoustics conditions answered and worked with  the right way ... There is no luck in any acoustical manifested phenomena ... We must use the principles and work the system/room ...

Using digital DSP will not replace synergy between all pieces of gear , will not decrease vibrations, nor correct the electrical noise floor and will not transform a bad room acoustics in a better one ... it will put a band-aid on the physical perceived acoustics wounds ...It will not suppress crosstalk ... And if it does it , some DSP does it, it will be  with no comparison with the BACCH filters ...

The best imaging is not so hard to achieve BECAUSE it does not result from luck but from acoustic applied principle and synergy, and mechanical and electrical embeddings controls ... Digital DSP alone, without inner ears measures and HTRF measures which must be used and applied in an already acoustically controlled room, is not enough ... Even the BACCH dsp will need physical room acoustic to work optimally ...And no DSP correct the lack of gear synergy .;..

 

 

The best imaging is very hard to achieve. It is impossible in some rooms. The speakers have to be in symmetrical identical environments and have to have identical frequency response curves from 100 Hz to 12 kHz. This is difficult to achieve without digital signal processing. There can not be any serious phase aberrations and all drivers have to be time aligned. Full range loudspeakers with subwoofers are the best way to achieve this. The fewer analog crosses the better. Digital crossovers are better but rare. There is only one preamp that has them and that is the DEQX Pre 8. There are commercial dBx DriveRacks that could easily be used in a home system. Sanders uses one with his Model 10 loudspeaker.

Coming up with an entirely analog system that images at the state of the art is a matter of sheer luck. I use to sell and install systems in a previous life and I have heard only two such systems do it. It also requires the right live recordings. With studio recordings image "depth" is a matter of how much echo is applied. I view studio recordings as a different form of art, fun in it’s own right, surrealistic.