Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

@erik_squires thanks for initiating this thread, as an amateur speaker builder I appreciate your post and thoughts. @amir_asr thanks for posting here with your responses and input - I have spent a fair bit of time on your site over the last few years and I am a member. I have been reading and posting on Audiogon forum for getting close to twenty years, and have been into audio reproduction since I could climb on a chair and operate my fathers Garrard/Fisher hifi stashed up high in the hall closet. @ricevs, @mrdecibel and @pickindoug’s comments resonate for me and I appreciate your perspectives.

The reason for my increase in visits to ASR has to do with recent Internet searches on specific gear of interest taking me to the site. Repeatedly and consistently. So ASR is definitely influencing this hobby in the Internet era, and as with who lives in the biggest houses and drives the newest cars in my city, it’s helping tip the balance of power and influence in this hobby for the interested public and new generations of audiophiles from artists, musicians, designers and pretty much anyone with good listening skills to… engineers and computer algorithms. This makes me sad. If you were to spend anytime on ASR, you would gather that ears need not apply, their days and role in the hifi buying decision process are… over. No, seriously, if it can’t be measured by this or that analyzer, it can’t have value. Period. Now Amir may not say or think that, but the bulk of the discussion on his site adheres pretty closely to this line.

Amir has gently poked fun at one of my posts on ASR regarding some character of sound of Schiit Mani 2 phono preamp, probably something about soundstage… while others have been extraordinarily sarcastic and blatantly dismissive of any subjective comment I might make comparing the sound attributes of say, one DAC compared to another when they both measure “perfectly”.

I started my hifi habit by pouring over and being obsessed with spec sheets, and I have always measured the in-room performance of speakers I have bought or built, or when trying to integrate subs into two channel systems. I still look at measurements in reviews if available to see if a piece of gear follows sound design principles. BUT, as my understanding of how everything does matter, including the room, gear matching, vibration control and cabling, I have become really careful at testing changes to my system, retaining changes that make a difference, and rejecting those that don’t.

I have found that different cables can sound different in my systems, with some cables making things better, some cables making things worse, and some having no effect. I assemble power cables from different off the self components, and some of them sound remarkably different from the others. If someone cannot not hear the difference, they are in the wrong hobby.

And for me, speaker cables can affect how I perceive soundstage in my room. Different DACs also change how I perceive soundstage in my system. Sharing these subjective “findings” on ASR or other “science-based” Internet forums is met with considerable indignation, and if I persist I am accused of sealioning or worse. When I note that I have done double blind tests with digital cables that showed deeply overlapping results on the qualities of the sound produced with sighted tests they are dismissed as “poorly designed”. 

Some of the strongest critics are those with careers in the professional sound recording or production field who are experienced and knowledgeable, and therefore hard to dismiss. They are quite comfortable in their certainties that all modern DACs, amplifiers and cables sound the same unless they are “badly broken”, and they will cite numerous double blind tests that “prove” they are right. Pointing out that those results are not universal brings intense criticism of the individuals responsible or involved in tests that support observed differences in, say cables. It comes off as a rather passionate defense of the castle walls, and makes me wonder how good our recorded music could sound if greater care was placed on how it is recorded and with what equipment?

I have decided the only way to challenge this freight train of thought is to mount some well designed listening tests that would meet the rigor suggested by Amir and others. One of the problems I see with previous group tests of gear and cables is that the subjects are not necessarily familiar with the room or the equipment, and therefore don’t have a solid baseline to judge subtle differences or changes. If multiple subjects are listening in the same room, not all of them can be located in the sweet spot, and will therefore not experience soundstage reproduction in the same way. These are logistical challenges that must be overcome to run an effective ABX/double blind test. I will not have time to take on such a task until I retire, but I am certain it can be done.

In summary, I do think measurements are critically important and a great place to start your audio reproduction journey.  To that end, sites like ASR provide a valuable service.  I do also think there are elements of this hobby and equipment design that are both not fully quantified or measurable, yet, and where art and subjective listening add real value. My concern is that absolutist worship of measurement over listening will lead many to miss out on some of the more pleasurable elements of fun, enjoyment, and discovery this hobby has to offer. I am definitely for less arguing and more listening.

kn

I concur with your opinion.

I discussed enough for 10 days here with Amir and his acoustics knowledge is around DSP not basic concepts distinguishing human hearing from Fourier Maps...He does not even to understand them because they are qualitative concepts based on real human hearing abilities in the field. These concepts are useless for his reductionist ideology.

it is a man who sincerely convey an ideology as pure truth.

This ideology begun to destruct human lives in a visible manner now : it is techno cultism conflated with and then replacing science...Most people dont have the basic knowledge necessary to see this...

Intelligence does not means wisdom ...

Knowledge cannot be reduced to science save by ideologue like Popper . I prefer real scientist from formation to political propagandists as Polanyi and Goethe were .

i will stop here but techno cultism is a plague and the introduction of A.I. will make this way worse...It is easy for engineers to put into people head that inside of this statistical blackbox of A.I. trained is an intelligence superior to man. Especially with the prodigious improvement of many basic fields. We will become the tools of A.I. it is already the case. A.I. will less align on us than us on it . Narrow materialist mind will call that the progress and the future. Now guess on who are aligned the big corporations hubris for power ? No not on science as Polanyi or Goethe, but on techno cultism as religion with A.I. as God all that to control free human spirit and bent it to the will of the few.

So ASR is definitely influencing this hobby in the Internet era, and as with who lives in the biggest houses and drives the newest cars in my city, it’s helping tip the balance of power and influence in this hobby for the interested public and new generations of audiophiles from artists, musicians, designers and pretty much anyone with good listening skills to… engineers and computer algorithms. This makes me sad. If you were to spend anytime on ASR, you would gather that ears need not apply, their days and role in the hifi buying decision process are… over. No, seriously, if it can’t be measured by this or that analyzer, it can’t have value. Period. Now Amir may not say or think that, but the bulk of the discussion on his site adheres pretty closely to this line.

Amir has gently poked fun at one of my posts on ASR regarding some character of sound of Schiit Mani 2 phono preamp, probably something about soundstage… while others have been extraordinarily sarcastic and blatantly dismissive of any subjective comment I might make comparing the sound attributes of say, one DAC compared to another when they both measure “perfectly”.............

In summary, I do think measurements are critically important and a great place to start your audio reproduction journey. To that end, sites like ASR provide a valuable service. I do also think there are elements of this hobby and equipment design that are both not fully quantified or measurable, yet, and where art and subjective listening add real value. My concern is that absolutist worship of measurement over listening will lead many to miss out on some of the more pleasurable elements of fun, enjoyment, and discovery this hobby has to offer. I am definitely for less arguing and more listening.

"Just look at his image on the ASR site. A Geisha with a sneer. His intent is pretty clear with that alone."

That is no geisha.  She is a gorgeous bride getting married at a Shinto shrine in Ueno park in Tokyo:

Different couples get married every half hour there.  They put them through stock poses which is boring.  I waited for the break between pictures to capture this lovely picture of hers.  

There was no intention behind picking this picture for my Avatar other than this being one of the prized images in my photography portfolio.  It shows beauty, culture and tradition.  There is zero negativity in it much less what you are reading into it.

My intent on ASR is to bring reliable facts and data into the conversation about audio fidelity.  Many love that as evidenced by massive growth of ASR in such a short period of time.  Naturally, if your views are based on anecdotes, and stuff you have read online, and you are library of audio research and engineering is empty, you are going to see them opposed.  You are welcome to stick to your opinion but don't go making stuff up like you did above.  You get your hat handed to you that way. 😁

Many of us aren’t arguing the measurements. I’m arguing that Amir and ASR have a toxic culture that permeates other audio forums with condescending tones that have been normalized and promoted at ASR.

There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture.  We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research.  If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback.  It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn't.  Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that.  The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.

Many days we celebrate on ASR for discovering something new.  Latest example is a DIY speaker that blew us away in its performance despite its very low cost:

The speaker not only measured great, it sounded great in my listening tests.  There is nothing but happiness as a result of this.  Someone like you coming in to pick a fight is not what we are about.  But if you engage us that way, as I mentioned in the above post, we will hand your hat to you.  Not because we shout louder but because we have the research and data on our side. If that is cause for unhappiness, then don't visit ASR.

Then Amir, please reciprocate.

Amir has an opinion like anyone else.  He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science.  His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods.  Correct me if I am wrong, but Amir has never designed and built an audio component.  He has not demonstrated the ability to listen and review audio components nor has he been published outside of his own u-tube channel.  The most remarkable thing about Amir is that he has accomplished so much notoriety with so little.