What if a high end speaker measures really badly?

@helomech 

@audiokinesis is a respected speaker designer with decades of experience. 

Regardless, I wasn’t implying that some of us are simply blessed with golden ears, I was merely pointing out the facts that 1) the majority who engage in the “hobby” are well into their retirement years, and it’s statistically true that most have suffered 10s of dB hearing loss relative to someone in their 20s or 30s. 2) I was also pointing to the poster’s mention of his experience with DIY and modifications, which the vast majority of audiophiles lack. Such experience can be very educational for correlating measurements with subjective sound quality. I don’t think it’s a stretch to presume the majority of audiophiles have never built their own speakers or designed a crossover, or even read some of Dr. Toole’s and Olive’s research for the matter. I would bet the vast majority cannot interpret measurement graphs beyond a simple on-axis impulse response.

Just my 5 cents experience...

For your point number one, acuity of young and mature ears must be a must for the industry designer but i am 72 years old audiophile and i experimented a lot with acoustics for my own pleasure and for creating my system...

I dont use computing tools nor any computing analysis of measurements...😁

I used only my experience and i succeeded correcting the defects ( vibrations/resonance,shielding, and performance in a room ) of my speakers ...

I modified them (rearport redesigned) better wave guide and i used a complex set of Helmholtz resonators inside one another with an inside neck and a belt of diffuser behind me between the two speakers...

The transformation impact is stupendous...

Then we can use our imperfect old ears as tool and knowing what we do when we do it if we had trained them to recognise acoustics basic parameters variation in reality not virtually. I am able to correlate all acoustics parameters with my subjective impression in my own room...It is my second room. I did it 2 times.

This make me conclude that measurements are useful for designing good speakers, but we need to measure the relation between speakers and room and our own ears. I could had used the Choueiri method to do the basic inner ears and HTRF measures and could had used his filters and a good DSP. But i dont had it...😊

Then i used my hearing as a tool and my results are staggering . It is not perfect but it is enough to smile at any upgrade...

my low cost modified speakers give me holographic sound, immersiveness and listener envelopment with natural timbre.

Conclusion : speakers sound exist in a room for specific ears...

The set of necessary measures must be a set way more complex than what speakers designers spoke about most of the time...( for example taming the pressure zone distribution in the room with resonators location and dimensions)

Because i cannot compute all this parameters i did it with my trained ears...

Complete success...

Speakers must measure well if the designer know what he is doing...But the real speakers set of measures are done in a room with the ears as tool as i did or with the ears measured if possible ( as with the Choueiri kit)...

All audiophiles are not deluded one. And speaking of "golden ears" here it is not super acuity claims about hearing but it is only about training the ears and make them able to correlate subjective perception with acoustics physical parameters. I am a "golden old and less acute ears" in this second sense. I will not be helpless with any speakers in any room because i will know what to do...

Exactly like the Roman architect Vitruvius who used resonators in theater architecture without electrical tools nor computer...and even today acoustician are stunned by ancient theater acoustics.. . Vitruvius was "golden ears"...

 

 

What is a speaker for me ?

A Helmholtz resonator...

What is a room for me ?

A Helmholtz resonator...

What is a speakers set in a room ?

The same thing as the thing i had designed yesterday : it is a resonator inside a resonator as the one i put behind my listening position... 😋

Then all must be tuned, mechanically, electrically and acoustically ...

 

 

For me high end gear is often more about price tags than about acoustics qualities...Anyway who will buy 100,000 bucks speakers? Most of the time someone not interested by acoustics and not interested by the time and method necessary to create a room for his speakers and for his ears..

 

 

 

It could be the measurement was not done correctly.  Here is the freq. response of the Thiel CS2.4 done by Stereophile.  It doesn't look very good, but the speakers are very neutral and sound quite good.

@andy2 - That’s kind of a weird graph, I think the bass response is incorrect, it’s way too flat to be real.

On another note, I’m afraid I’m going to have to disagree with you. The two times I’ve heard those speakers I was completely unable to listen too them. They sounded much like the Triangles to me and painfully bright.

I know many Thiel lovers here will disagree with me, and that’s fine, I know I’m in the minority. I have to wonder if their charm isn’t at lower listening levels or if I made the mistake of listening with too much toe-in?

Here is the freq. response of the Thiel CS2.4 done by Stereophile. It doesn’t look very good, but the speakers are very neutral and sound quite good.

This is not "neutral and sound quite good". Perceptively, this is another episode of V curve-ish crap that will have appeal to some guy who’s forged in the flames of cheap Klipsch or other lousy focals.

I have ignored the Thiel thread until now (let y’all fan boys rejoice in your own lil pond gleefully), but, you decided to bring it to another different kind of thread...where the truth may get spoken. Sorry to burst your bubble.