ultrasound record cleaning machine damaged my records

@pfmaudio,

You previously said you tried only your old distilled water and the machine caused no problems.  Then you bought new distilled water and added

two drops of the cleaning fluid, as recommend by the brand. After a careful glistening, I remarked lost of focus and quality. On the 4th music, steamroller, it was clearly noticeable the distortion on the electrical guitar.  I rest my case, I don’t want to ruin more records. This machine does ruin the grooves.

Is the cleaner the problem or the machine?  I previously indicated that the cleaner is an unknown and other forums had indicated less than satisfactory results with the brand cleaner.   Cleaner residue is a well-known problem with record cleaning and people using cleaner w/o rinsing and not all cleaners rinse easy.

Years ago, when I was developing precision cleaning processes for the Navy and its suppliers, and these were large multi-bay UT consoles, balancing pre-cleaner concentration to ensure they were rinsed in the follow-on UT rinse bath before final clean in 3rd UT tank was a critical attribute.  One common commercial product at 10% concentration (as specified by the OEM) was not completely rinse in the UT rinse tank.  This was evident since the final cleaner was a patented inorganic alkaline cleaner that would not foam, and suddenly started foaming caused by it removing the residue from pre-clean/UT-rinse step.  The pre-cleaner need to be diluted to 2% to be effectively removed by the UT rinse step.  

So, is the problem the cleaner or the machine?  Unless there is something wrong with the machine, that leaves the cleaner.

@whart,

The book in Chapter XIV lists no-rinse concentrations.  Concentrations specified (see Table XXIII Nalgene™ Dropper Bottle Use for Degritter™ & Humminguru™) are good enough for wetting only.  If the concentration is high enough to get detergency, then as the Table specifies - rinsing is recommended to avoid audible residue.

But if we look at say 30-ppm of nonionic surfactant (of those specified by the book) that is essentially the same as 30-mg/L = 0.03-mg/ml.  If we assume 3-ml dries on each side of the record = 0.09-mg of nonionic surfactant and the record surface area (with grooves) is about 1-sqft = 0.09-mg/sqft.  And if you dive into Chapter XI, this is about the equivalent film thickness of 0.01-microns.  This is down at the record surface roughness which is pretty much below audible.  

But to get good detergency from a simple high-performance nonionic surfactant you need to be up at 150-ppm = 150-mg/L, and now the residue thickness is 5X what was calculated above, and now the residue thickness is also 5X higher and now we are into the audible region based on user feedback.

However, note that vacuum-RCM, because there is so little fluid being used, the recommended final cleaner concentration is 500-ppm, so rinsing is mandatory especially since the vacuum is not 100% efficient in removing (sucking up) all fluid from the record.  Testing (as described in the book Chapter XIII) has shown vacuum RCM is only 70 to 85% efficient in sucking up all fluid (depends on the fluid).  The 15-30% not sucked up is essentially dried in-place.  

Take care,

Neil

A few have asked me in PM what the heck is my Manual Cleaning method?

Of course you can prove this is a horrible thing to do to LP’s, but

Manually Clean LPs

Lots of words but it is easy.

critical for success: ama zon, sort by price: lowest.

critical for enjoyment: do this while listening to music (I sit dead center).

Materials:

1st, but the kit from ama zon, search titles are from Ama zon

Big Fudge Vinyl Record Cleaning Kit (whatever one is on sale)

it comes with some washing fluid. Buy some extra fluid.

2. Next buy Alcohol

C V S Health 91% Isopropyl Alcohol, 16 Ounces

3. Buy Jet-Dry dishwasher spot eliminator

Finish Jet-Dry Liquid Rinse Aid, Dishwasher Rinse and Drying Agent, 23 fl oz

4. Find a small spray bottle (not heavy while working) to put your mix in and spritz lps with.

5. Brushes, Baby Scalp, 3 pack

Loofah Sterilized Cradle Cap Brush - 3-pk

5. Distilled Water. C V S has it, but clerks look in the wrong places

C V S Health Distilled Water, 128 oz

6. Waterproof Vinyl Sheet, mine is from Party Store, doubled over to protect my dining room table.

7. Lint Free Cloths,

a. to keep the area of work mostly dry, under the lp so the paper label on the down-side doesn't get soaked.

b. when lifting lp out of cleaning spinner (has ONLY distilled water it in). while dripping water back into the tank, do a preliminary wipe before putting LP into the drying rack so it dries faster (and area below rack isn't a puddle).

8. Final, most expensive: get a lid from a Chinese soup container, they are the size needed to protect the paper label while scrubbing.

Procedure:

cleaning fluid mix (not scientific): supplied lp cleaner with a decent amount of alcohol, and several drops of jet-dry in the spritz bottle. This stronger mix is only going to be on the LP a short while.
tank, fill with distilled water only, leave the kit's brushes in for final rinse

drying rack ready
batch of 10 lps. (as I wash them, I turn the covers upside down in a stack), easy to get the washed/dry lps back in the covers in order without searching.
soup container lid held on with one hand
spritz, scrub, vigorously, you won't hurt them, you want the bottom of the grooves clean so the new stylus shapes which get down deep will find virgin groove information, that is the key for success. This, and the stronger mix, is what I think is better than ultrasound, who knows.
rinse in spin tank, drip/wipe some (change distilled water as needed).
place in drying rack.

you will be amazed the first time you play a previously filthy LP.

 

 

 

 

Thank you Neil @antinn for recapping the data on "one step" cleaning processes and residue. 

Bill

@antinn,

thanks for your feedback. The only time I had no trouble was when I used the new distilled water with no cleaning fluid (the small bottle, of the same brand). However, it was with an old record, to which I listened before and after, without detecting differences. On old records there are always things we hear and it was a record that I didn’t listen to for a long time. I am 99% sure there were no issues. But not 100%. However, I didn’t hear the king of distortion present on the other records. 
 When I used the old distilled water only, the results were a disaster. 
When I used the new distilled water bottle with 2 drops of cleaning fluid, I  got bad results, but it was subtle. Only at the fourth track I could be pretty sure. On the 3 previous tracks there was perhaps a veil which prevented me to immerse on the music. But it was vague enough for me to admit there might be a psychological effect. However, on the fourth track, it was unmistakable. 
so perhaps you’re right and the problem is on the cleaning solution. The problem is that I don’t want to risk more records…

Do you think doubling the drying time can help to remove the eventual residue?

I’ll keep you informed of further developments. 
 

best regards,